She's That Founder: Business Strategy and Time Management for Impactful Female Leaders

042 | Negotiate Like a Boss: How Ambitious Women Get What They Deserve: The Power Of Female Leaders with Tabatha Jones

• Dawn Andrews • Season 1 • Episode 42

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My Good Woman, are you sick and tired of the corporate boy's club underestimating you at every turn? Of watching less qualified colleagues get promoted over you while your badassery gets swept under the rug?

Then listen up. This episode is your battle cry for smashing through that thick glass ceiling once and for all. My guest Tabatha Jones, shares invaluable insights asking for what you’re worth, shattering self-limiting beliefs, and overcoming imposter syndrome.

You'll learn how to loudly and proudly trumpet your biggest wins so the bigwigs can't ignore you anymore. Tabatha shares her most rebellious tips for selling your skills with boundless confidence. And you'll discover surefire mindset shifts for embodying the fearless negotiation queen within.

If you're ready to go from overlooked underling to unstoppable female force, then stop reading this and press play, MGW. Let's get that cash and career respect you deserve!


In this episode, 

  • I'm exposing the 3 rookie mistakes stunting your growth as a woman business owner. Discover how to sell your skills, get the promotions you deserve, and shatter that glass ceiling!
  • Tabatha Jones and I share strategies for confident communication that propels you from an overlooked underling to an unstoppable female force.
  • Tabatha shares the confidence playbook to help you boldly articulate your value, squash imposter syndrome, and rise to the highest levels of leadership.


This episode at a glance:

[05:36] She's not confident bringing up numbers that highlight her accomplishments or her benefit to the business and it is stopping her dead in her tracks. 

[12:10] I just kept doing it. So, in my young, ambitious, excited self, I loved my boss, didn't want to change jobs, so this is where I'm going to stay.

[16:25] You've got to invest in yourself and just keep having those conversations and remaining visible.

[17:31] I just want women that are in a corporate setting to check in with themselves is what you're doing versus what you're being paid in alignment.

[23:23] We have to get out and advocate for ourselves and we have to be able to talk up. Talk about ourselves and the things that we're accomplishing.

[36:55]  You don't need to sound rehearsed, but you need to be confident in what you're saying and get your points across.


Resources and links mentioned in this episode


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My Good Woman
Ep. 42 |  Negotiate Like a Boss: How Ambitious Women Get What They Deserve with Tabatha Jones

 Tabatha Jones: A lot of times what it looks like is someone literally in tears on a zoom meeting with me for the first conversation because she doesn't understand why she didn't get the job. I've been working for this job. I've done all the things I don't understand why I didn't get it.

Dawn Andrews: Welcome to the My Good Woman podcast where we help female founders break past plateaus and get to the next level of business growth by refining their strategy building systems and streamlining operations. 

I'm Dawn Andrews and the founder and CEO of Free Range Thinking Business Strategy Consulting. Join me each week for candid conversations, with culture, shifting glass ceiling busting trailblazing women who are leading impactful enterprises and grab their strategies to help your business reach extraordinary levels of growth. 

In this episode, you'll discover strategies to confidently negotiate for what you deserve which impacts your path to scaling your business. You'll discover how a single conversation can pivot your career trajectory and lead to unexpected leadership opportunities. And the importance of articulating your value and accomplishments for career advancement, not just for more hard work.

And one more little bonus item to add to this fabulous list of what you're going to get when you listen today. So life happens and in this episode, Tabatha and I had a tech meltdown in the middle of the episode. You will notice where my extremely creative podcast editor, Gemma, was able to pull the audio from our video and replace it, which is great because we were able to complete the episode so that you can hear all of Tabatha's wisdom. But you'll notice a change in the voice. So, roll with us. It's just life. It happens. And I like to be bigger than my circumstances. And I know you do to, enjoy.

Dawn Andrews: Tabatha Jones, welcome to the My Good Woman podcast. I am really glad that you're here with me today and I'm especially glad that we just get a chance to catch up because we trade emails quite often and refer clients quite often, but we don't get a chance to actually chit chat. So today is the day.

Tabatha Jones : I'm so excited. I can't wait to catch up.

Dawn Andrews: Yeah. As you know, from our pre show conversations, we're going to spend a little time getting into articulating your value, for women, helping them understand ways to articulate their value and why they do and why they don't. Before we dive in, would you share for the listeners and for me just a little bit about yourself and about your business?

Tabatha Jones: Sure. So I call myself a career growth coach. I left corporate after just over 30 years back in 2021 at the age of 50. I thought, why not? And that's how we met so right now what I do is I spend most of my time coaching Gen X women so they can take their careers to the next level. I'm all about promotions and job interviews, career transitions, leadership, literally anything that will help a woman start feeling like she's thriving in her career, loving her life, and really getting to that next level that she deserves to be at.

Dawn Andrews: I'm curious already, I have so many questions off the bat. But with that Gen X strata of which I proudly count myself among, are you seeing a lot of people coming to you? And is there a lot of movement for that group of women in their careers?

Tabatha Jones: There is and absolutely. So it's funny. So our listeners don't know this, but when I was getting ready to start my business, you're the very first person I worked with. And one of the things you kept saying is you need to niche. You need to identify your client. You need to get really specific. And I thought, okay.

 And I kept working on it. I got to a point about a year in and I said, okay, let's see who I'm working with. And every single one of my highly successful clients was a Gen X woman. And, I feel like our struggles are just a little bit different. We were raised a little differently. We were raised to, I don't know about you, but when I got on the honor roll, we didn't go throw a party and go tell everybody about it. We just like tuck that in, right? Just walk around quietly knowing.

Dawn Andrews: Or you got that weird little pin, what was that weird little pin you got? Yeah. I, same. I was like, yeah, that was good. Good for you. Moving on. 

Tabatha Jones: And I feel like at that point in our lives, we learned, you're bragging and that's bad. And so as we've grown up with that kind of in the back of our heads, I found that we really struggle when it comes to articulating our value and it can hold you back in a lot of ways, whether it's your career or growing a business or just as a woman in society in general. 

Dawn Andrews: I hear you. I mean, I feel like I've spent the 20 years that I've been in business unlearning that. I was at a dinner last night with my husband, it was him and his seniors, his bosses. And it was really fun, great night, and it just struck me the ease with which they crowed about their accomplishments and for some of us, maybe in the Gen X generation, it might have even felt name droppy or whatever, and it just was a matter of conversation.

 They weren't trying to affect anything, push anything, they were literally just sharing facts. You know what I mean? And the facts were great facts, but I realized how much I swallow sometimes my own facts and it's not even a matter of the bragging or not. It's just that, it's just straight truth. That I accomplished something that I earned something that I launched something, but I still, you hide your light under a bushel as people say. So it's fascinating to me, so you've seen that be true when you're talking to women in this gen X generation. 

Tabatha Jones: Oh my gosh, so often. And a lot of times what it looks like is someone literally in tears on a zoom meeting with me for the first conversation because she doesn't understand why she didn't get the job. I've been working for this job. I've done all the things I don't understand why I didn't get it.

And as we dig in, it comes down to she's not confident telling her story. She's not confident bringing up numbers that highlight her accomplishments or her benefit to the business. And it is stopping her dead in her tracks. 

Dawn Andrews: That's what I was going to ask you about or what I was curious if people even acknowledge when they've come to you, that this is what the problem is, that they're not actually, singing their own praises, but it sounds like they're just frustrated because they've done all the hard work to earn and get whatever they think is the next rung on the ladder and they're not getting it. And so the surprise behind the scenes that you know that maybe they don't yet is that they need to develop the skills to talk about themselves. 

Tabatha Jones: So sometimes they do realize it. Sometimes they'll come in. I just bombed this interview. I just didn't really articulate my experience very well. More often, it's they're just pissed off. I don't understand. My boss knows what I did. These people know me. I don't understand why they hired this person over me.

It's really interesting. one of the things that I'll often ask as we get into the conversation and coaching is, one of the first questions in an interview is very often tell me about yourself. So we're going to dry run that and I'll say, okay, we're in interview mode. Lisa, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and Lisa will almost always start talking about her family, her health habits, her dog, her passion for charity, all the great things that make Lisa amazing.

What Lisa forgets to do in that is highlight her accomplishments at work and her areas of expertise. And when I push the pause button and backtrack, the light bulb really goes off. But the first question I don't want to say 100 percent of the time, but very close. won't that sound like I'm bragging? No, it's not. We've got to get that confidence in there. 

Dawn Andrews: Yeah. and what strikes me is, I'm imagining myself sitting on the other side of the table from someone that I'm looking to hire. And for me, it's more that I'm listening for what the matches for what I need. I have a need in the business, I'm looking to fill a hole and get some set of functions and responsibilities taken care of. And so I'm not judging the quality of the person, are they arrogant or not necessarily at some point over the course of an interview that will reveal itself. But the first thing I'm usually looking for is here's my little shopping list of what I need so that I can get this work done.

Do you fit that? And if I'm asking somebody about themselves and I'm just getting all of the personal information and it means I just have to dig harder to get there. And if somebody is not understanding that's what's happening in this interview exchange, it's hard to get the information out there. And the reason I'm saying all of this is just because it, it strikes me as a two fold challenge.

It's a confidence issue which were societally programmed into, but then it's also an understanding just from a tactical perspective, what's happening for the person on the other side of your interview desk that what they're looking for and if you can realize that transaction is happening, maybe it will help you also to be a little gentler with yourself and being willing to share. I feel like we're just like racing right ahead, but how do you coach people through that moment?

Tabatha Jones: So we start out gentle, these individuals will want to know all of those personal things about you when you have the job. Today they care about your ability to perform the job and you need to stand out. And the way to stand out is coming in confident. So I want to tap on confidence first of all, when I'm asked, doesn't that sound like I'm bragging? or isn't that arrogant? or is that too cocky?

Ladies, the odds of you coming across as cocky or arrogant or any of the other words we put behind that, slim to none in a job interview, we just don't generally have it in us. But the most important thing to do is prepare. Preparing a really solid, elevator pitch, and I know we talked a little about this, but having an elevator pitch that works in a job interview, which is slightly different from an elevator pitch you would use any other time.

Whether you're in a literal elevator, or having an important conversation, or sharing your business goals, it's so important. And being able to highlight your skills and ability to do the job in that first 90 seconds is the game changer. And I actually do a couple of things with candidates as they're working on this or women as they're working on job interviews of telling right out of the gate. I'll go. 

Dawn Andrews: Before you do that, sorry, listeners, this is like teach us, interrupt us right here. Cause I'm going to hold it. I'm going to hold it because I want, Tabatha to, share her strategies, but I want you to know a little bit more about her before we dive into it.

So Tabatha, you were a high level executive when you left your corporate job to start your business. You've walked in the shoes of the women that you're coaching, what was that journey like for you? To go from wherever you entered your career life and to ascend those different steps on the ladder. Were there bumps along the way? What happened for you? 

Tabatha Jones: So many bumps. Okay. So I tripped and fell into Viacom Cable back in 1990 something. It was long ago, nineties right? it was just going in for six months of experience in a call center. And I applied for a couple of different jobs, had a couple of different roles. And then I fell into, and I say fell into because, I didn't know it existed, information services and I loved it. No day was ever the same. 

Dawn Andrews: For everybody listening, cause some folks are small business owners, maybe don't know what information services is. So what, tell me about that.

Tabatha Jones: Oh good, coding. Billing system coding. So if you have ever received a cable bill, it has had the hands of the information services department on it. any of the messaging that comes out. So I just built a whole loving fan club just now because they know that I know how much we love our cable bills but- 

Dawn Andrews: I'm behind you, Tabatha. I believe in you.

Tabatha Jones: There is a lot of coding and programming that goes on behind that. And I really learned everything I could. I took a project management role when it opened up, and I loved that because I got to have my hands in so many things. I was leading projects with hundreds of people, leading to millions of dollars in revenue, and here's where I succeeded, but also stumbled a bit.

 So as a project manager, I had an amazing boss. She understood when I got bored, she just needed to give me more work and I'd be happy and keep going and chug away. So for 10 years, I remained in a project manager role, and I was not only leading ginormous projects for the state of California, which was its own region at the time. I was leading four separate teams of people who did different types of work.

Dawn Andrews: Oh my God. 

Tabatha Jones: Right? 

Dawn Andrews: Let's hear that little nugget as four different jobs, should have probably been four different people, but because you had excelled and people gave you more they kept giving you more. Okay, continue. 

Tabatha Jones: I just kept doing it. In my young, ambitious, excited self, loved my boss, didn't want to change jobs, so this is where I'm going to stay. I never even once thought, maybe you should go ask for more money. No, instead I thought, you should probably get a degree so you're ready for the next job when it comes. Silly me. 

Dawn Andrews: Is anybody else hearing this? Is anybody else relating? Anybody else hearing this? Okay, go ahead.

Tabatha Jones: Yes, there came a point where there was a reorganization. We were going from a regional structure to a division. So seven states, actually no backing up, we weren't quite there yet. We were reorganizing in California and the billing system manager position posted, which was a promotion. I was already doing 75 percent of the job, there were two other people who were highly qualified for the job, but weren't quite doing the level that I was. So I went for it, I was offered the promotion, with a 4 percent pay increase. Then I said, no, thank you. 

Dawn Andrews: Oh, my heart hurt a little bit when you said that but you turned it down?

Tabatha Jones: I did, I turned it down. And within a half an hour, I was sitting in the CFO's office asking what it would take to get me to accept the position. Had a very great conversation, that negotiated up to a senior manager title and an additional 15 percent on top of the 4 percent that I was offered. So crazy, right? 

Dawn Andrews: What was it in that moment, do you think, Tabatha? You had been doing the work, you applied for the position, you interviewed, you were offered the position and in that moment when they're like, we're so happy, yes, this is yours and it's a 4 percent raise. Did you already have a sense of what you were looking for from a financial perspective?

Cause that's a moment of recognizing your value to know that you've hit an inflection point in a job, because I would imagine that might've been stay or go moment even. And so, did you already know that there was a number that you were looking for and you were like, nothing below this or did you find your courage and find your backbone in that moment to say no and hold out to see what happened? 

Tabatha Jones: So I fully expected that when I was offered, I would accept it. I had no number in mind, I had nothing. But when this leader said 4%, it was like a slap in the face. For 10 years, I have done these things. This is what I've done. I've gotten my degree. I've done these things like thinking that I was building and getting ready for this next role. And you're coming at me with 4%. I declined it immediately. I didn't even say, I'm going to think about it. I was just, you know what, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. I'm good.

Dawn Andrews: You know what? Okay, so what's interesting to me to pull out, to highlight for people listening is you had been over delivering for a decade. You allowed yourself to over deliver for a decade before you found yourself, it sounds like. Is that a fair statement?

Tabatha Jones: It is true. I had led the largest for people who understand technology things, the largest billing system conversion in the history of the company and our billing vendor. I was leading teams that were successfully adding addresses and customers to our business every single day. I had done massive loads of cleanup.

I had a ton of respect, even from the regional and division presidents, who actually had asked me questions along the way as we were working on different things. And I just hit a point where I was like, nope, I'm not taking 4%, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and I'll find my way out and see what's next.

Dawn Andrews: I think we have bought into the story that if we do good work, we'll be recognized, noticed, and rewarded. I think that's a lovely idea. I don't think it's ever true in reality and not because there's anything malicious going on in companies. I think that just people have too much to do and too much to focus on to notice one particular person's high performance and then choose to actually pull it forward and reward them. 

Maybe a bonus situation or a year end, you know, the gift card at the end of the year, like that kind of thing. But when it comes to actually leveling up in your career. You do have to call it out. So why do you think you worked so hard for 10 years before you decided to step forward? 

Tabatha Jones: I believe it's very much a Gen X trait, as you mentioned, sit there and somebody will notice you're working hard. Just keep your mouth shut your head down and do what you need to do and get more education, you need another certificate. When I coach women now that I ask what's holding them back and they said, well, I need to finish my degree.

Absolutely you don't unless you're going to become a doctor or a lawyer or something really important like that. For those of us in corporate and those important types of jobs, you don't necessarily need an MBA. You don't necessarily need this additional degree. You've got to invest in yourself and just keep having those conversations and remaining visible.

Yeah, so it's, in hindsight, I wonder, why did I sit there for so long? But in all honesty, I didn't, I loved my job. I loved my people. I loved the challenge. It just never occurred to me until that moment that it was time. 

Dawn Andrews: Yeah. I think there's something in what you shared in that moment when they made you the offer and there was the 4%, there's something in recognizing that, misalignment for yourself and being able to notice it even when it's more subtle. Cause there probably were times along the way. I know when I look back at my corporate career before leaving and starting my business, there definitely were times along the way where I felt like I had overextended and it's one thing to overextend because there's a particular moment going on or a, a project that is requiring a little bit more, but there were plenty of times that I was.

It's like the frog in the boiling water, it's like you start and it's oh, it's a little, it's a little warm in here, but I'm just going to keep going. God, it's a little, it's getting a little hot in here, I got this. And then next thing you know, you're a decade in and you haven't asked for what you deserve. So I guess what I'm calling out, is I just want women that are in a corporate setting to check in with themselves, is what you're doing versus what you're being paid in alignment?

And if it's not, you don't have to freak out and do anything about it right this second. It doesn't mean you're going to walk out the door and quit. It doesn't mean anything other than just to I'm touching my chest right now, like to check in with yourself and notice that what that feels like so that you can continue to do that as you progress. Because then you could start to learn the stuff that Tabatha's teaching so that you could ask for the raise more frequently.  Because I'm just imagining for you, after that moment, then what happened? They called you back, they offered you more, it was like a 20 percent raise instead of a 4 percent raise by the time we were done, right? 

Tabatha Jones: It was higher bonus. All that good stuff. Yeah. 

Dawn Andrews: What? That's what I'm talking about. Okay. I don't even remember how long you were at Viacom slash Comcast. Like you were 10 years in that role then you stepped up, then what happened? 

Tabatha Jones: So fast forward about 10 months into the senior manager role, big reorg, we're going from a region structure to a division structure. So now instead of California being standalone, there's going to be seven states that the information services department will support. So that means all the leadership team has to reapply for their jobs and they're starting with the director roles. You know what I did, I applied for a director role.

And, I knew I was ready for it. I clearly had been doing all the things and I started talking to different directors who were in the process of reapplying and I was hearing that they were interviewing and this person was interviewing and that, that's weird.  I'm not interviewing. Okay. So I reached out to the hiring manager, at that point and I asked if we could have a quick conversation and she said, absolutely. 

And I said, I'm just curious to know how it's going with the interviews for the director role. I noticed I haven't been called or scheduled for an interview. And she was so sweet and gracious and said, we have directors who need to be placed. So that was our first priority to see, if each of them fit into one of these roles. I think they were going to, from seven director roles to four. And so everybody has to reapply, re interview, all of that. And she said, and we're really looking for people who've already had director titles but don't worry, we have a senior manager role for you in our organization. Once we have the director's place, we'll be working on this next level. 

And I thanked her for being so candid and open with me. And I said, I really appreciate it. A couple of things you may not know about me. And I shared with her some of my successes. I included a lot of stats and metrics, I included the 10 years that I had sat in my role and all of the work I had been doing without the title. And I explained to her why I was so excited about the director role, and that this was my opportunity to either move up in the department, move over to a different department, or leave the company completely. And two days later, I was in Denver, interviewing with a panel of seven vice presidents. 

Dawn Andrews: That's what I am talking about! Okay, for those listening, did you hear the different language that she was using? There's talking, talking nicely about ourselves and then there's talking directly about what we want. And what we're worth and what I heard and what you shared, Tabatha, first of all, was like, I'd like an update on what's going on with the director roles.
 
There are so many women I know that would be terrified to even open that conversation, that would not feel they were entitled to that information or to even be curious about it. And then to be able to say, here are some things maybe you don't know about me and sharing things that were relevant to what mattered to them in that job function so that they could really see you in relationship to that position. And I think we just gosh, I spent years overlooking those kinds of conversations. It just didn't even occur to me to have them.

 I don't even know that I had gotten to the point where I wasn't confident enough to have them because I didn't even know that it was possible to have them in the first place. Listeners, I hope that you're taking away, already, two little nuggets from Tabatha's journey. Words that you can use, that it is okay, you can always ask what the status of an ongoing or open hire is. You may or may not get any information. It may not be as detailed as what Tabatha got in her situation, but you can ask and then you can share why you're relevant to the conversation.

Tabatha Jones: Absolutely. Oh, my gosh. I know it was so exciting. And the best part is because I weirdly love interviewing, which is why I went this route, right? It's so weird, but I'm sitting in a room with seven vice president should have been super intimidated. But the best part was we're going through this full reorg. They weren't even sure what role they were interviewing me for. And they knew it was a director role and then it was a, I think this role is blah, blah, blah. The other person's no, it's this one. And I started laughing and I said, may I? So I explained what the role was, explained why I was there to interview for it. And we started off on a really great note. I had a job offer in my hand in less than two weeks,

Dawn Andrews: I love it. I love the success stories, but here's what I want to know. These are great pivotal moments that we're talking about. Do you feel like you had to wrestle with some of what you're helping your clients with now? Did you wrestle with your own confidence or your ability to be able to express your value or even to gather the information to express your value? Did you have struggles with that? Or is that one of those like you said, it's a weird thing where you're like, I just know how to do that. I just, I don't know. how I know, but I know.

Tabatha Jones: For the 10 years I did my struggling and then I was over it, there's no more struggling. And one of the things that a lot of people, it happens to a lot of women, is we get to a point of we have a job interview and we're going, Oh, what am I going to say? What am I going to talk about? What's my experience? Where are my examples?

I've kept a sheet of success. I've kept a sheet that talks about the revenue my projects have generated. I've kept a sheet that talks about my employee survey scores. I've got all of that data so that if I have an interview coming up, I can pull from that experience and prepare really quickly and really easily. A lot of us forget to do that.

And then also using that information in one on one. So it wasn't a surprise to my leader when I accomplished something, because I made sure she knew about it. I made sure she knew what my team was working on and how I was leading them through maybe a struggle and removing some obstacles, it's really critical. And we have to get out and advocate for ourselves and we have to be able to talk about ourselves, and the things that we're accomplishing.

When we're having a struggle and we need help, we also need to know that we can ask for help in that space because that shows that you're a transparent person and that you're, you don't have all the answers, but you can go find your resources and you can get things done. So I would say it's weird that I like interviewing so much. Yeah, if I had to go to an interview tomorrow, I'd probably cry a little bit, but if it was next week, I would be set. I'd be ready to go.

Dawn Andrews: You'd be prepped and ready. So I love your wins list, your accomplishments list, I think that's great. And to those of you out there, if you haven't started something like that for yourself, I encourage you to do that. One of the things, I'm part of a mastermind group for business owners because it can get really lonely running your own business. 

And one of the things that we do frequently, it's required each week. And I try to do it more frequently than that is in our shared community group, we post our wins and wins can be anything from I got to the chair by 9 a. m. today and started working to, I just closed 100, 000 deal or higher than that and everything in between. And it's so helpful in that community setting, because then I don't necessarily have a document that I'm keeping, but I can go back and look at all of my posts and see how I expressed it, the comments that people gave back, the encouragement. 

As a generation, I feel like we're not necessarily very celebratory. It's like you said, the example you gave with honor society, We did it. We got it. Whatever 3. 8. Watch me go moving on, and I feel like that's how I live my business life, you just that amazing thing happened that milestone moment occurred, that revenue number was reached and you're like, okay what's next? Then you blow right past it? So start your list now if you haven't already even whether you own a business or whether you're in a business.

Tabatha Jones: So good. Every client that comes in to work with me one on one, they start with the 50 things I'm most proud of document. And so many women get to 13 to 15 and they stop and those 13 to 15 are all work related. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, you're so much bigger than your job. There's so much more going on that you do that you put out in your family or your community or I rescued a dog.

Like you've done all these amazing things, right? So celebrate it. And, I had a friend ask, she's does that anklet come off your ankle? I'm like, nope, I got a permanent anklet. And I got it because I was at a low point in my own business, we have those days. And that very day I signed my highest ticket ever client. And I was like, I'm never going to forget this day. So you know what? Every time I look at my ankle, I'm like, oh, yep, good day, I got this.

Dawn Andrews: So this is interesting because we're talking about the marching through the corporate journey and rising in it, but you decided to leave ultimately. So what happened there? What had you leave and start your business? 

Tabatha Jones: I did so we'll fast forward a little bit more through corporate just to get you the lay of the land there. So I took on a little more responsibility as for a promotion was promoted to senior director a couple of years after my director promotion. And then in 2019, big reorg, we're going from seven states of a division, we are now going to support 40 some odd States of the United States and we're changing into a corporate structure. And so we're going through all this prep and planning. It's 400 people, 40 some odd States for divisions with totally different cultures and structures and tools. Oh my gosh, I get indigestion thinking of it. 

Dawn Andrews: Yeah, it sounds like it's a lifestyle choice at that moment, right? Who do you want to be? What do you want your life to be about? 

Tabatha Jones: Yeah, exactly. And the interesting thing is the plan was to slot people directly into the roles that they have. Not roles, changing their jobs, but keeping their titles. And if you've met me at this point in my life, I'm like, Oh, bless your heart. So I scheduled a call with the head of the department, up there on the ladder and had a really candid conversation that, when we reorganize based on the structure, my peers have titles of executive director or vice president.

Now I'm not expecting to go to vice president, but I would expect that a job offer would come my way with an executive director title and a pay compensation as my scope is expanding. And it happened, got that, everything's good, I'm feeling okay about it going in, and then just realized that culturally it wasn't going to be a good fit for me any longer.

There are some things that are really important to me in business, in life, there are values, trust is a huge one, having a candid conversation, whether everybody's comfortable or not, I don't care, we're going to have the conversation, we're going to come to an agreement, we're going to adjust any or address any concerns and we're going to move forward with that decision made and that was not the way things were going and I was like, that's it, I'm out.

And then all of a sudden we're shutting down for two weeks for a pandemic and I was like, Oh, better hold on for just a minute longer. So I did, and I just decided at that point, my job right now is to get my team settled, get them adjusted to the new structure, get things standardized for this team so that when I'm gone, they're prepared and they're set for success while I'm mapping my exit plan. 

So in March of 2021. I had been telling my husband since December, I'm giving my notice in March, it's happening. As soon as my bonus is done, stock options are handled, all that stuff set, I'm done. And, it happened, I told my boss on teams because that's what we were using at the time. Of course, not in person. Watched her visibly choke on her water because she was so shocked that I gave three weeks notice and I marched out on my merry way.

So that is how that transition happened. Which then, just got me into this whole vibe of business and knowing that I've helped so many women throughout my career, teaching them to advocate for themselves, giving the tools I wish someone had given me when I was younger and watching them grow.  Every person who was one of my direct reports in our former organization was promoted in the new program or the new structure. So yeah, building leaders is one of my favorite things. Confidence leaders, all that good stuff.

Dawn Andrews: Oh my goodness. Okay. So now because I'm letting you know that we are transitioning listeners into getting to learn a little bit from Tabatha about what to do to advance in your career. Cause here's my evil genius plan, Tabatha, I would like nothing more than every woman that is sitting in corporate right now to have a journey like yours. To work their patooties off, to know what their worth is, to ask for it, to continue to advance and break open spots in the ceiling so that women can advance further into high level leadership, and even the C suite. And then to realize that it's much better on the outside and come join me as they start their business.

Tabatha Jones: Yes.

Dawn Andrews: Because this is how I think the good stuff happens. But, there's something really, valuable in taking that corporate ride. So I'm not saying that there isn't incredible stuff to be learned and gained there. I just want you to do it faster. I don't want you to have a decade of struggle before you decide to speak up. I want you to listen to what Tabatha is sharing today. 

Step up and ask for what you need and want and move faster through the corporate journey because with each step that you make in that direction you make space for another woman to come up behind you and we need more women in all levels of leadership in corporate.

What is it right now? I think the c suite across all fortune 500 companies think it's it was 22 percent in 2021 or 2022 and it hovers up and down, usually dips below that, but it very rarely goes above that and that's abysmal and that's not even counting, women in management positions below that the numbers are not good, you guys. So grab everything that you can from corporate, advance, make space, and then jump out and take all that beautiful expertise and build a business that makes you really happy. Hoo! Okay, soapbox done. 

Tabatha Jones: It's so good and so true. Oh my gosh. And when you talk about, speak about women at in the C suite and the percentage is so low, it's so very low when you get in the tech space. So I was leading tech teams. I've spoken at tech conferences and the number of women in tech leadership roles is I can't even grab the stat out of the top of my head. It's so low and it's lower, by race. Like it's abysmal. That's your word. It's shocking, it's-

Dawn Andrews: The kind of thing where you're the only woman in the room, and you're looking for at least one other person
 
Tabatha Jones: Like anybody, anybody else know what a hot flush is? Cause I'm having one right now. Anybody at all. 

Dawn Andrews: Oh, girl, I'm doing that right now, too. Oh, my goodness. Okay, So let's take it back. Let's pretend that I am your person and I'm in, some corporate role and I'm mad as hell and I don't want to take it anymore, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. So to have a chat with you and what are the things that you notice? And then what are the things that you take me through, to prepare me to have those kinds of conversations that you shared with us? 

Tabatha Jones: We're going to generally ask a lot of questions, and I know we only have a certain amount of time here on this podcast. So there will be a lot of questions so that I can get a true reading of what's happening. 

I'll give you a recent example, a lady, I met her paddleboarding of all places, right? So I do meditation paddleboarding with a friend of mine who has a business. Anyway, so we're out there and she's just, Oh, you're a career coach. Let me ask you some questions. And so she was being compensated as a project coordinator, but as she's telling me about her job, she's either a manager of operations or she is a project manager or a manager of project management. 

So we had a call, right? So it's getting into, first of all, why are you frustrated? What conversations have you had? And what feedback have you received? And then we start working through all of that to understand really what are the next steps. 

So we'll fast forward in this situation. I'm saying that you're in similar shoes, right? You're a senior manager. You've been passed over on this director role. These things keep happening. You're doing all this work. We're going to talk about formulating the conversation. It's going to start with a really clear conversation about your value.

What have you accomplished in your role? What are you doing that benefits not only your boss, but your team and the business? We're going to show what you were hired to do versus what you're doing. And we're going to talk about what a fair compensation looks like so that you are prepared to go in and we're going to role play the hell out of it, but we're going to have you prepared to go in and have a conversation and ask for what you want.

This particular woman, we just prepared, she had the conversation this week. Today is Thursday, she let me know yesterday she's being promoted. She's waiting for the letter that's coming with the compensation information. It wasn't even, and it's director or manager of project operations.

Dawn Andrews: So good. Just to be clear, you're giving me the top line, but when they have the opportunity to work with you, you're pulling on the threads to help people express what those things are or to search for what those things are and then to shape them into that conversation, right? That's what's happening in the time with you because that's where I think a lot of women get stuck is, maybe they can call out the really major things, but they're not really sure how to package that in a way that actually is impactful for the conversation, or they're nervous, they got shaky knees, just even preparing to talk to the person. Just the idea of it is overwhelming.  So I love that you're a guide and a mentor and a thought partner and a collaborator with everybody to help them, not with everybody, with your clients, with women that are coming to you to help move themselves forward. You're guiding them and shaping that with them. It's so helpful to have somebody that's on your team.

Tabatha Jones: Exactly, thank you for saying that. And it's very similar with women who are on the job search and struggling in job interviews, not understanding why they're not moving past that first interview. So often it's because they're interviewing for a director or vice president role. But they're using frontline level examples. I think we've talked a little bit about some of my programs, but getting into, I call it my fishing expedition. 

I use zero sports analogies. This is my only one, so take it for what it's worth, but we will keep fishing, I will keep throwing the worm back until I have the answer I want. That's it. That's my only sports analogy, but it's so interesting that, we know all these great things we do, but again, we hold back and I've asked, just to get the light bulb to come on, that response you just gave me, what's the role you're applying for and does that response really apply to that role or does it apply to the role of somebody you want to be leading somebody you would want on your team because you're sending a mixed message.

Dawn Andrews: Gosh, to have a set of ears to be able to hear that back, because what I imagine happens, I know this happens for me when I'm reaching out for whatever's the next big thing for me is the first place I end up going is speaking out, but rolling back into my own head. I could be having a conversation with you, but I'm actually having a conversation with myself and words are coming out of my mouth towards you.

 I'm not actually preparing that conversation, delivering it to you, and making sure that you're getting what I'm saying to you and that we're actually connecting over whatever the topic is. In my, lack of preparedness or nerves or story about who I am and who I am to that opportunity. I'm immediately up in my head and without somebody there to be able to listen to what I'm doing, it's hard to pull yourself out, like to separate.

Tabatha Jones: Oh, absolutely. So recording is important to me, I record sessions and then I'll have people go back and listen. I always say don't look at the video because you'll be picking it yourself the whole time. That's what I do. I was like, really? Is that hair there the whole time? Nobody told me. Just go back and listen to the audio because the more you hear yourself and get comfortable with it, the more confidence you build.

I've actually had clients record their 50 things they're most proud of and play it in the car on the way to work. The more you hear it, the more you believe it, it makes a difference. Same with interview prep or preparing to have that tough conversation with your boss, record it and play it and listen to it until you're comfortable with it. You can make changes. You don't need to sound rehearsed, but you need to be confident in what you're saying and get your points across.

Dawn Andrews: That's so good. So we've worked together to build your business, but we also, we refer people to each other. And we've spent a lot of our conversation today talking about the promotion experience, finding your value and being able to ask for what you want to step up and negotiate for a better salary and more responsibilities, bigger title. Are you also still working with people who are on the search and helping to even source what they're looking for and get clear on the kind of role that they're looking for?

Tabatha Jones: So that is a great question. And I've shifted a bit on that. So when people are not clear, we'll have our 30 minute complimentary chat and I'll give them homework, really asking them to dive into what they enjoy doing, what they absolutely loathe doing and never really want to do it again, what are some dream companies or industries they're interested in.

I found that when women have that really clear direction that they're headed, which that kind of is the start of their road map. it helps them move so much faster. And I've had women where I'll send them away for, let's regroup in two weeks. Let's talk about it and see where you're at. And they'll come back with, Oh my gosh, this helps so much. I'm so clear on where I'm going. I've had others say, you know what, I need a little bit more time, I'm just being more thoughtful in my choice. And a lot of women have taken, there's companies offering early retirement packages, trying to adjust the organizations as fairly and comfortably as possible. 

And a lot of these women are taking the package with it. I want to work with you as soon as I have the package and figure out what's next. But what we're finding is really they need to decompress a little bit because they've been working for 25, 30 years and I'll give that exercise. Hey, I want you to work on this while you're in your downtime, just in the morning, having coffee, jot some notes down when you're done, let's get back together. It could be six or eight weeks. But clarity is important.

Dawn Andrews: It is. Part of it is jotting down the ideas and notes, but what would your top three, clarifying questions be? What would you ask people to consider? You said, what did you, what do you really want? What do you loathe? You said it and I just want to have you repeat it.

Tabatha Jones: No, absolutely. What do you love doing? What lights you up every single day? For some of us, it's really easy. Helping other people. Seeing other people succeed. That probably says you should be a leader or a coach or something along those lines, right? What do you absolutely hate doing?

I can't stand data and spreadsheets and details, right? So that's on there. If my job has a little bit of that, which, oh my gosh, business owners, it has a lot of that, but if a job has a lot of that, it may not be a good fit. So we've got those two things. And then really thinking about dream companies or industries. So if you're really excited about new things that are coming up, AI technology, cybersecurity, let's start researching some companies that are hiring for those roles.

Because as technology shifts, companies and job markets are shifting and it's shifting the types of people they're hiring. Just had a great conversation with someone whose company used to hire a lot of, I think she called them data scientists, doing more analysis on, say, energy and usage and that type of thing. Now they've got meteorologists looking for weather events so they can get ahead of those weather events. And so all of a sudden there's an explosion of jobs for meteorologists and people who are weather experts. So industry shift, climate change is causing a lot of that AI again. So really think about the things that excite you and start doing your research there.

Dawn Andrews: So good. Okay. Now that I know. Now that everybody knows, that they have somebody who can be in their corner, so that when you put the gloves on and go step up to fight for what you're worth, you've got Tabatha to have your back, and to help you prepare, and to help guide and mentor you. Where can they find you? 

Tabatha Jones: I am all over the place, but my favorite place is on LinkedIn. So it's Tabatha Jones. I'm all A's. So I'm sure that'll be in the show notes, but, I love connecting there. And then usually we have a great conversation via chat or we can schedule a complimentary call and just see where you're at and what you need some support with. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook, but again, LinkedIn is where I share the majority of the content. Also, I have a website, it's TabathaJones.com, so easy to remember.

Dawn Andrews: Love it. Okay, my last question to you, because I love to ask this of all my guests, imagine that you are in Times Square, all of the sparkly billboards are surrounding you, and the biggest one is for you. So what message would you put on that billboard to share with the women of the world?

Tabatha Jones: Oh my gosh, my brain just squirreled because I'm actually going to be there next week. I was invited to a conference. Oh my gosh, so excited. What's it going to say? yeah, what?

CONFIDENCE MATTERS.

And one thing I say a lot is people will tell you to fake it till you make it. I say PRACTICE UNTIL YOU FEEL IT.  That's what it is for confidence. If I could share confidence with the world, that's what it would be. It's just feel confident.

Dawn Andrews: Love it. Girl, thank you for joining me today. I'm so glad we had a chance to hang out this way and spend a little bit of time together. And thank you very much for sharing your personal story. I think there were so many good little nuggets for people to take away. And in fact, as you're listening, my challenge to you is give me a little DM with your hashtag favorite nugget.

So whatever it is, what are you taking away? What was valuable to you? And, there might be a little surprise on the back end for you when I see you in the DMs. So DM at Free Range Thinking with your nuggets and let me know what you took away from this great conversation with Tabatha. And Tabatha, thank you again for joining me today. 

Tabatha Jones: Dawn, thank you so much for having me. This was a lot of fun. It's always great to see you. And, I can't wait to follow up afterwards and see what's going on in New York. 

Dawn Andrews: Woo hoo! Me too. All right. Take care. Take care. Bye. Bye.

Well, Hey, Hey. Hey, My good woman. That wraps up another enlightening episode. I hope Tabatha's journey and insights have inspired you as much as they have me. If you have found value in this conversation, why not share it with a friend who could benefit too? 

Let's spread the word and empower more women together. Keep breaking the ceiling and remember, you have the power to shape your career and your business growth. Share this episode and let's amplify our impact. Catch you next time with more empowering stories and business strategies.