014 | Nice Gals Finish First: The Power of Kindness in Business & Business Strategy with Kat Jones

Do you ever wonder, “Can I be successful in business if I'm kind to others? Being kind in business doesn't mean you don't stand up for yourself or you're a pushover. Being kind helps you stand out.

My good woman, Kat Jones, has built her company Motiv PR with kindness, front, and center. Motive PR partners with digital brands to deliver results-driven strategies with invaluable collaboration. Their clients have included Critical Role, Felicia Day, E3, Blind Squirrel Games, and more. And she's a Marvel alum! 

This 10-time veteran of San Diego Comic-Con was also named one of the top PR pros by Business Insider three years in a row.

In this episode, Kat and I discuss:

• Why being kind in business is a point of distinction
• Files, folders and organization to help things run smoothly
• Believers who help you flip the switch from having big dreams to being in business
• That moment when you realize that you really do know what you're doing
• Michelle Obama. Nerds. Geeks. Super fans, Mrs. Betterway. Slimers and go-to karaoke songs. 

This episode at a glance:

[07:28] When you start to have the Mrs. Betterway moments, chances are you're headed down an entrepreneurial path
[12:33] Workshop your business ideas with people and get some reflection back, and if somebody is not into it, it doesn't mean it's not a good idea. Maybe something about it needs to be adjusted. And you can continue to refine it before you have to take the risk and ankle your job.
[23:57] I remember being at a company that shall remain unnamed. I loved being there, but one person made it so difficult to enjoy. It was the straw that broke the camel's back.
[27:30] I think that's what it boils down to for me: if I didn't try, I would regret it. So I try having the conversation, and hopefully, there's a resolution.
[37:01] Everything you need to get started is within arm's reach. You just have to put your head up and be willing to ask. 

Resources and Links 

• Two Dope Queens
• Motive PR
• Youtube 
• Twitch
• ComicCon
• Studio Octopie
• Tools: Airtable, Monday, Asana, Muck Rack, Slack, Google Drive

You might also like 

• People Reading Guide
• Build Better Business Partnerships
• Leaving The “Perfect” Job so You Can Fly Higher

More about the “My Good Woman” podcast

My Good Woman is a podcast for bold female leaders hosted by me, Dawn Andrews! Grab a seat at the table for candid conversations with culture-shifting, glass-ceiling-busting, trailblazing women who are leading enterprises that ar

Want to increase revenue and impact? Listen to “My Good Woman” for insights on business strategy and female leadership to scale your business. Each episode offers advice on effective communication, team building, and management. Learn to master routines and systems to boost productivity and prevent burnout. Our delegation tips and business consulting will advance your executive leadership skills and presence.

Transcript

My Good Woman 
 Ep. 14 | Nice Gals Finish First: The Power of Kindness in Business

 

Dawn Andrews [00:00:01]

Hello, friends. Welcome to My Good Woman, the podcast for New and Future Female Leaders. I'm your host, Dawn Andrews, a happily married hockey mom and the founder and CEO of Free Range Thinking Business Strategy Consulting. Grab a seat at the table with me each week for candid conversations with culture shifting, glass, ceiling busting, trailblazing women leading impactful enterprises. We discuss what makes them tick, how they get it all done, and actionable strategies to help you lead with confidence and grow the visibility, reach and revenue of your business. We're classy, ladies, but we don't bleep the swear words. Listener discretion is advised. 

Dawn Andrews [00:01:04]

Hello, my good woman. Do you ever wonder to yourself, can I really be successful if I'm kind to others? The answer is yes. Being kind in business doesn't mean you don't stand up for yourself or that you're a pushover. In fact, being kind helps you stand out. And I have a very fun conversation for you today. My good woman, Kat Jones, has built her company Motiv PR  with kindness, front and center. Motiv PR partners with digital brands to deliver results-driven strategies with invaluable collaboration. Their clients have included Critical Role, Felicia Day, E3, Blind Squirrel Games  and more. And she's a marvel alum. This ten-time veteran of San Diego Comic-Con was also named one of the top PR pros by Business Insider three years in a row. Today, we geeked out about believers who help you flip the switch from having big dreams to being in business. That moment when you realize that you really do know what you're doing. Michelle Obama, Nerds, Geeks, superfans, Mrs. Better Way, Slimmers, and go-to karaoke songs and so much more in the realm of kindness and business. Enjoy my conversation with Kat Jones. 

Dawn Andrews [00:02:21]

Kat Jones. Welcome to the My Good Woman podcast. I'm so delighted to have you here today. 

Kat Jones [00:02:27]

Oh, my goodness. I'm so excited to be here. This is a pleasure. I'm usually on the other side of it. I'm usually the one looking for my clients to be on podcast. So this is surreal, but I'll just I'll embrace it and I'm very excited about the convo. 

Dawn Andrews [00:02:38]
 
Well, I just want to say you're wearing it well. So for the listeners, if you can't see the visual, Kat has a gloriously chic bob going on and some big glasses and great art behind her, and I feel underdressed but very excited for the conversation. 

Kat Jones [00:02:54]

And I can reciprocate and say, you look absolutely lovely as well. I did wash my hair for this, which is like a miracle. So I feel pretty bright and shiny right now. 

Dawn Andrews [00:03:03]

These are the things to look forward to in the Zoom age. You're like, Okay, what do I really have to do this week where I can wash my hair in you know it? I want to say thank you. Thank you for making that effort. I feel very special and honored because I did the same for you. I even curled it. There's some curl. 

Kat Jones [00:03:16]

I see that. Yeah, I know. I look at the week ahead and I'm like, okay, which days do I need to wash my hair given what I'm doing the next day? And this is one of those days where I was like, alright, I'm doing this. It's going to be on camera. Let's wash the hair. 

Dawn Andrews [00:03:27]

There's a great episode of Two Dope Queens. I don't know if you know that show and our podcast, Phoebe Robinson and Jessica Williams and they as their sort of swan song episode for that podcast, they interviewed Michelle Obama,  which was amazing. She talked about being in the White House and having up and down days. So up days were like, put it all together, do the hair. One of her main goals in being in the White House was to make sure that she got out of being the first lady and still had hair. Because of all of the styling and prepping and being ready for events. So she talked about those down days when she was walking around in her like tank top, cut off shorts and no makeup and just living her life. And then days when she had to make sure she had a good wedge on so she didn't trip coming off of a plane and had her hair done. So I was appreciating it. 

Kat Jones [00:04:14] 

Honestly, I not only appreciate that, I've actually had moments that where sometimes I work with talent or I work with folks who need to be on camera a lot and things like that. And I have a genuine gratefulness that I don't have to do that on a regular basis. 80% of the time I don't have to really dress up and have to do that. I appreciate it when I do, but like having to be in the spotlight all the time and having that kind of eye on you, I'm sure there's a scrutiny and you always have to be put together. And I appreciate that I don't, I am mentally, emotionally in interactions, but like physically, man, if I have to take more than a half hour to an hour max to get ready for certain circumstances, I'm like, nope, nope. 

Dawn Andrews [00:04:54]

Ready to shave the head, get permanent makeup, and have a black turtleneck like Steve Jobs and call it a day. 

Kat Jones [00:04:59]

Oh, my God. Sinéad O'Connor can pull it off. Right? Or Natalie Portman, V for Vendetta. I'm not kidding. I've had moments where I was like, I might have the right shape. 

Dawn Andrews [00:05:07] 

So let's talk about that for a minute. You're in the PR game. You own Motiv PR and your company's, what, four years old now? You started in 2018. 

Kat Jones [00:05:17]

Yes. Public relations end of 2018. I actually started in a bit of a whirlwind. I started to lay the groundwork of wanting to do this and really feeling confident and comfortable. It took me months to get to the point where I was like, All right, I'm actually doing this because I'm very much a planner. But I will say the moment I chose to flip the switch was all in one month I got married, we decided to move and I launched Motiv. It was December 2018 and then officially hit the ground running in January. It feels like a long time, but it also doesn't feel like a long time that I've been doing this. 

Dawn Andrews [00:05:52] 

From everything that I researched and read. You've been in this game a long time, just not specifically in your own business, a long time. 

Kat Jones [00:05:59] 

Yeah. And full disclosure, I honestly thought I was going to be the in-house PR person for my entire life. If you would have asked me five or six years ago, "Kat, are you going to launch your own PR firm?", "Are you going to go off and do your own thing?" I probably would immediately say, oh, absolutely not. I meant for having a structured job within security. I always had that because I'd always been in a very secure role. And then something switched, whether it was encouragement from others or whether it was. I do actually have a memory of starting to like look around and see different people or brands or companies. The wheels would turn, Oh, I could like the idea of what a PR strategy could be for them. I would see what they would be doing for PR and I would be like, Oh, no, I wouldn't do it that way. And as I started doing that, even when I was an in-house PR person, I was doing that a lot with external companies and I was like. Kat you know what you're doing. It was this "aha" moment where that insecurity or leaned back in the room. When you're in a conference room where it's Oh, I don't, can I? And I might have an idea, I don't know, maybe that kind of shed and I was like, that was early 2018 and I was like, I know what I'm doing. And that's when I started to lay the groundwork of what Motiv might be. 

Dawn Andrews [00:07:10]

It's so interesting. So I call that moment the "Mrs. Better Way" moment. When you start to look around and like, for instance, you're hired, you're working inside a corporation, you're handling their PR, but you're looking at other brands outside and seeing how they're doing, what they're doing in your space, and you have your better way. When you start to head of the Mrs. Better Way moments, chances are you're headed towards an entrepreneurial path. So it could be entrepreneurial in that you leap and start your own thing, or it could be entrepreneurial, and that you really push for an advancement in your position to where you have more ownership and strategic decision-making capabilities inside the company that you have. But once you start having that Mrs. Better Way moment, it's the beginning of realizing that you own your experience from your whole life. All the different things that you've done. It starts to coalesce and that's what has you saying, "Why are they doing it that way? This is I have a better way for that". So it sounds like you had your Mrs. Better Way moment. 

Kat Jones [00:08:06]

Oh, I love that. Again because I like to be like a team player. So there's a part of me that's like, I don't know if it's a better way, but it's definitely a way that is different. And, you know, but I like Mrs. Better Way I'll take that. 

Dawn Andrews [00:08:19] 

So since you said you're a planner, I would love to hear for all the planners that are out there that are listening, I would love to hear what was the plan like? What happened once you started to see that this is something you wanted to do, what did you prepare? How did you plan to make that exit and start your own thing? 

Kat Jones [00:08:35]

Oh man, honestly, it's a whole lot of documents. Started just putting my thoughts on paper of like, what a mission statement might be. What would my ideal client look like? Who could that client list be? It was documents and spreadsheets where I was just putting my thoughts on paper. Because in my world, the only way that I would be confident enough to take the leap is if I could look at multiple things that I had created in front of me, whether it was a mission statement, building out a website like I built my own website, you know, like curating a list of potential clients, starting to like connect with them and seeing if I branched off and did my own thing. Would you want to work with me? You know, just kind of those casual conversations. And if the responses were yes or maybe it was like the confidence started to continue to build. 

Kat Jones [00:09:24] 

Actually, the way in which I thought of the company name, I knew so many people would be like "Kat Jones PR that's a great name", but I never really wanted it to be my name because then it's strictly tied to me. It doesn't have the ability to grow into something past me or further than me, whatever that might look like. And so I was at a sushi restaurant with my husband and we were just talking about it and I was like, "The first question I ever ask people when building out a PR strategy is like, What's your motivation? What's your goal?", and he goes, "Well, motive, motivate, motivation, pure motive", and I was like, but we both thought, Motive PR like, I got to give him credit a little bit because he helped me with that. And then I was like, "But let's be like sassy and fancy and take off the E". For real, to answer your question from about February, up until December, I just put thoughts on paper and I have my Google Drive right now if I point to my early days Motiv PR folder. It's full of where I put my thoughts on paper, of what my goals, my objectives, my timeline. 

Kat Jones [00:10:26]

I put together a timeline of the first three months, first six months, first nine months, what I'd want to achieve, what I'd want to accomplish. Then it was maybe September timeframe, that I ended up telling my boss like, "Hey, I'm going to branch off, I'm going to do my own thing." So the company I was with, full disclosure, they were called Defy Media, and they were a big digital umbrella company that owned a bunch of digital brands like Smosh, Smosh Games and Clever,  these really well-known YouTube channels and things that have a large presence online. And I was working with a lot of those folks and I really loved it. And so I brought up to him, I was like, "Here's the deal. How about you hire me in January when I launch Motiv to just oversee PR for Smosh is my client or clever is like, these individual small brands. I was like, "You don't have to pay for overhead for a VP of PR". I explained the value and he was like, "Great, let's do it". Unfortunately, cut to November and the company folded. So thank God I laid that groundwork. Then I had a little bit from November to December I was able to actually put more effort into planning my wedding and stuff. But yeah, that was what I ended up doing. Just lots of documents that laid out where I wanted the company to go and what I valued and mission statement and website and all that fun stuff. 

Dawn Andrews [00:11:42]

Well, that's gold for anybody listening that has an entrepreneurial inclination. What I appreciate about what you did was that you emptied your head out and it put you in a position to reflect back. Is what I'm seeing workable? Can I get somewhere with this? It put you in a position to see something real and tangible. So even though it wasn't a business just yet. Transitioning it just from thoughts and feelings into something either digital or physical makes a difference, which builds confidence. And then it put you in a position to be able to share it with other people. And once you can share it and actually workshop it with people and get some reflection back, and if somebody is not into it, it doesn't mean it's not a good idea. But there's maybe something about it that needs to be adjusted a little bit. And so you can continue to refine it before you have to take the risk and angle your job. So I just I love the process. Thanks for sharing what you did there. 

Kat Jones [00:12:32]

Of course, I think the early days of having that "aha" moment I could do this, being able to then reflect back and just have it reiterated in paper because it's easy to just say that. But then when you put it all down and you reflect on it, it almost just reiterates like, Oh yeah, not only can I do that, I am doing it and I did it. 

Dawn Andrews [00:12:52] 

It's a beginning of coaching yourself, you are your first coach. The next part is making the transition and you set it up really nicely to be able to consult for some of the brands that you were already working with, did that carry you through to the first client that you signed on your own? Do you still have those clients? What is the actual revenue generation look like for you and your business? 

Kat Jones [00:13:13]
 
I was very lucky and grateful that within the first couple of months I had a few clients and honestly, when I first started Motiv, I didn't even think about the concept of scaling, of growing. It was like, this is good. I want to work with people and companies that I dig and that's it. I didn't think about building it into a PR firm. So for the first handful of months, I was very flexible with how I approached projects. So I wasn't like, It's got to be retainer or It's got to be project. I talked to people and I dug what they were doing and I was like, "How do you want to work together? What would make it easiest for you?" And I'll work around that for the first, I'd say six months. It was working with anywhere between three and seven clients on average, but ranging in project size. I am so lucky because I have just a couple of clients. I work in digital media. So just to give a little background, I'm sure all your listeners probably know the Wild West of digital media, but for me to be going on almost four years and still have a couple of those same clients does say something within the digital media landscape. 

Dawn Andrews [00:14:19] 

For sure. 

Kat Jones [00:14:20] 

I'm very grateful to those handful of clients that I still work with. I do like the approach that I had that I still keep, which is I'll work with you, you tell me what it is that your goals are for PR, whether it's project based or it's long term, or you don't even know. You just know you want to get your name out there and I'll figure out what can be done and put it into a scope or put it into a potential partnership. 

Dawn Andrews [00:14:45] 

Who are your clients just so that people understand the type of folks that work with Motiv? 

Kat Jones [00:14:49]

Broadly speaking, we focus on a lot of digital media brands, companies and individuals. So whether that's content creators of people that you see on YouTube or Twitch or Instagram or actual companies within that space. So companies that oversee those brands to emerging technologies, we've launched a handful of apps, even hardware and software and then also video games. So we actually just got back from San Diego Comic-Con, which obviously isn't videogame related, but it's in the geek nerd fandom. And that was my 10th City Comic-Con that right there, if I could say our clients live within the San Diego Comic-Con sphere. That's the perfect way of putting it. And also my passion. I just I love the space. I love the people within the space geek, nerd, fandom, video games, communities in those worlds is really what we focus on. We work with this creator, Dylan LeMay, Blind School Games, Maestro Media.  They're small to large, different scale, but I love it. 

Dawn Andrews [00:15:47]

That's so great. So I have two teenage boys here were huge Marvel fans backwards, forwards, all the movies twice. And on Sundays and every bit of the Star Wars universe has been explored. We've done it all, got it all. So I can appreciate the geek nerd fandom place, and you'd probably be able to have a pretty intelligent conversation with them about all the games that they love to play to. My my youngest is super into Elden Ring right now. I don't know if you know anything about that one, but yeah, I'm starting to learn about it. I was going to ask who your favorite client type is, but we know it's the Comic-Con sphere. 

Kat Jones [00:16:17]

Oh yeah. Actually, fun fact, I used to work at Marvel. Actually, I will say the best way to explain the type of companies and people I love to work with is anybody who's challenging the way that people consume entertainment, which a lot of the geek third fandom sphere really does, because most of the time it starts with a single IP, or it's where we might used to be a comic book, or we might used to be like a live show. And then they just continue to expand all the ways in which they're fans and community can engage with them, whether it's then they make a podcast or then they create another show, a movie, an app or a board game. Right. There's just so many ways. I love that. I love being a part of that when it's something first and foremost so simple and then it expands into this universe of all the different ways a community can engage with that IP or that brand. 

Dawn Andrews [00:17:11] 

I love that you're including the fans in that conversation, that it's not just brand extension. Like, how many more ways can I put this out as a product for sale or product for consumption? But it's how can I put this content out there in this conversation out there so that it connects and continues to build community? 

Kat Jones [00:17:27] 

Yeah. And I mean, honestly, like one of the clients we work with, they listen to the fans first and foremost before they decide to take the leap into other merch or manufacturing ideas, which I think is just so important and actually is often a big oversight with companies where they just, you know, either the sea level or whatever, just go. Let's just make that because I like it. And that seems like a popular thing. Instead of actually using platforms on social media to like engage with the fans and really try and understand what it is that they care about and then expand from there. But it can be like a delicate balance because you don't want there to then end up being an assumption from the fan base that whatever they say goes, you know what I'm saying? It has to be a delicate balance. 

Dawn Andrews [00:18:11] 

To me, it's an evolution in business thinking because the way things used to be before, as we made this thing, we push it out to you and then we market to create your need, your interest. We tell you what the conversation is that you need to be in, that then has you turn around and buy our thing or engage with our thing. This is the next evolution in business, with social media being a little bit more mature to be thoughtful and considerate of the people that actually have chosen to invest their dollars with you and to consider them in the conversation of what they develop next. I think it's great that you're in that space and helping to foster that way of thinking when it comes to business. 

Kat Jones [00:18:43] 

Again, it challenges me because, for example, a great platform that does this, that automatically when I say it, you're going to be like, Oh, it's that one where people have to give money to it upfront and it doesn't. Kickstarter right? Kickstarter when I have conversations, especially with the media, I totally understand. Their first question mark is, I don't want to cover like a Kickstarter because that's not proven and who knows, it might not be funded and that's totally fine. I understand that. But a platform like Kickstarter is actually a really great example of what we were just talking about, where a lot of the times companies go or brands go to Kickstarter not to get the thing funded because they don't have money to be able to fund it themselves, but to allow the fans to interact with and contribute to and engage with whatever it is they're building from the very beginning of product development. Companies that will actually okay sure you sign up for this Kickstarter at the exact price point that the product would end up being on the long run and not anymore. I appreciate that. I work with some companies who do that, and then from the very beginning, every month they're like, "we're doing this. What do you think? Give us your feedback", and then they continue to evolve it and develop it based on that feedback. I think that's great. That's also what's interesting about platforms like Kickstarter, Indiegogo or whatever that might have a bit of an interesting reputation in that people just assume they're like, take my money. And if it doesn't get funded, it's more if you look at it like that with some companies that do that, I think it shifts the perspective on those platforms. 

Dawn Andrews [00:20:11]

For sure, I was. Here's the thing. There are 8 billion people on this planet, unless you are a Coke or Pepsi, with a massive marketing budget to reach all the people all the time about all the things, you do start with a small, organic little nucleus of people, and then you build and grow from there. So unless you got the venture funds or something else, hit the ground running and shoot the canons off so that people pay attention. I don't think there really is any other way. I was thinking about an author that I worked with that used Wattpad, a publishing platform, and they started putting out each chapter of their book that they were writing one chapter at a time. And so by the time that the book was finished, they already had the 10,000 minimum audience to connect with a publisher to be able to sell the book, because they already basically pre-sold it to all the people who had followed along and contributed and said, "Oh, this is an interesting narrative. What would happen if these two characters went this way or that way?". And it's not like the author didn't have a plot in mind, but they were sort of road testing it against the group of people. 

Kat Jones [00:21:11] 

It's almost episodic and hooks people in on what's going to happen next week. I got to sign up. That's amazing. I had not heard about that. That is wonderful. 

Dawn Andrews [00:21:18]

So cool. Okay. I was stalking you as one does when you're about to have a podcast guest, the banner at the top of your LinkedIn profile says "Work hard and be nice to people", which makes me so happy to see. It's always nice to work with nice people in business, people that want to create results and get things done. But you're also working in this geek nerd space, it's a male dominated space still. How do you find navigating that, being somebody who works hard and is nice to people but may or may not be encountering people who feel the same way. Do you bump into that a lot in the work that you're doing? 

Kat Jones [00:21:54] 

I did. I am very grateful that I'm in a position now where if I do, I'm just like, I don't want to work with you. I don't want to put myself and my team in a position where we're dealing with difficult people for no apparent reason. And honestly, I learned that motto is so simple and it actually hangs above my office right now. Like, it's so simple. But it goes so far because I have so many distinct memories in my early career. Being a woman in this space that I reflect on the way that people treated me, whether or not I was a woman or not, just being a coordinator like a lower on the food chain, for lack of a better term. And I never really understood why. So going through being young, being vulnerable, being not necessarily fully confident in what you're doing and having people talk to you like that when they don't need to. Like, I understand being firm or if things are stressful and you know, of course to sometimes go off or whatever. There are certain circumstances where, sure, it's not like justified, but you go, okay, pardon my French, shit was hard, but I see where they were coming from. But I have so many memories of people just being mean for no apparent reason, and I reflect back on that and just put myself in their position and I try to think why and I never had an answer. And so it was like when I'm in a place where I'm going to be working with many people, whether in a in a role where I oversee or whatever, it's not hard. Just treat people well, work hard, but treat people well. Because not only should that be second nature, it shouldn't be second nature to be a bad person. And if it is, you should probably go to therapy. You should just go therapy. Anyway, therapy's great. 

Dawn Andrews [00:23:34] 

Just go. It's good idea. Yeah, true. 

Kat Jones [00:23:38] 

True, true. But also the ripple effect it has. I'm so grateful to be working with the people that I work with and I think that a lot of the times why people come back is sure we have results or I have results or whatever, but it's also just enjoying who you work with is sometimes a majority of why you work with the people. I remember being at a company that shall remain unnamed and I loved what they were doing and I appreciated what they were challenging and I really loved being there. But there was this one person who just made it so difficult to enjoy being there, and it really was the straw that broke the camel's back. Why I ended up leaving and it was one single person out of an entire company. They just came in with a bad attitude all the time. And here's what's interesting, they were phenomenal at their job. They were super smart, super sharp, and they oversaw a fairly large to all this kind of stuff, but they made everyone around them miserable. And I saw the ripple snowball effect it had on everything around them that even if they got stuff done and even if they got it done well, everyone around them was either nervous around them and it created not a quality product around them. So that's where I got that. It remains like, seriously, my favorite quote of all time and probably will be until the end of time. And yeah, it's just important to me and I think it should become second nature for people and it's not they need to challenge themselves. 

Dawn Andrews [00:25:06]

 Amen. You've created this situation now where you have your own table. So people are now invited to your table. People are hiring you for your advice, your expertize, your strategy. But how did you find your voice along the way prior to this? When you're inside, these companies are working with people like the person you described, I call them a slimmer like everything that they touch leaves slime, slime on everybody else. 

Kat Jones [00:25:30] 

That's actually extremely accurate. Yeah. Yeah. Without them even knowing, like, they just don't even know. They just do it and then they walk. 

Dawn Andrews [00:25:37]

Yeah. So how did you find your voice? How did you find ways to speak up or was it simply avoidance? This is a difficult person. I'm going to stay out of their way and then I'm going to extricate myself from this and build the next thing. How did you approach difficult situations like that? 

Kat Jones [00:25:51]

So anybody who knows me knows, for better or worse, I'm not one who avoids difficult situations or even confrontation. I'm a deep communicator. If something is bothering me, I ask my husband in the moment, I'm just like, "Honey, we talk about this. We talk about this right now", and I'm like that in work. And so if there is a situation that arises and this was even when I was younger, I actually would just watch the show last night and there was a scene that I related to when I was younger. The show is called For All Mankind, I don't even know if you've seen it, but like this guy knew he needed to go to his boss and ask for that raise, but he was so nervous. But he still did it. And he still walked in there and he looked like a ball of nerves, but he still did it. And that was me earlier on. The confidence might not have been there, but I would go and I would have the conversation. Now I'm at a point where the nerves aren't really there. If I need to have that tough conversation, I will have it. But in terms of what happens next, it all boils down to what reaction I get. 

Kat Jones [00:26:46]

If the person who I'm having the conversation with is receptive and we're open to dialogue and then we're able to come to a conclusion. That's always what I hope for. And luckily I'm in a place now where the people I work with, whether they're challenging or not, if I can have that kind of conversation, that's usually the conversation and that's usually the outcome. But in previous years, like if their reaction is just brushing off or negative or can't even listen to me because they're just so stuck in their ways, because again, I might be the wrong one, but at least I want to come to the table with let's talk through this, because I want to hear your side, too. If it's clear that they're just not open to it, that's when I go, okay, it's not worth it to me. I'm just going to step away from the situation. At least I tried. I think that's what boils down to for me is if I didn't try, I would regret it. So at least I try having the conversation and hopefully there's a resolve. But if not, and it's clear the person is not going to budge and is very closed minded in the way that they want to communicate. Then at least I know I tried. 

Dawn Andrews [00:27:48]
 
For sure. Let's say you and I have something we need to discuss. How would you open that conversation? I would love to be able to give people who don't have that natural inclination to communicate or really just concerned and scared to do so with the ball of nerves example you gave. I would love to be able to leave people with a little courage. So how would you open a difficult conversation? 

Kat Jones [00:28:08]

I actually have a really great example. It's just a super silly example. But last month we took our very first international trip in two and a half years to Paris. My husband and I, I was meeting him in Paris and I got an email two days before my flight saying, "We're excited for you to check in for tomorrow."  And I was like, What? My flight's not until two days from now. So I immediately called customer support. I started the conversation with, "Hi, I'm sure you're getting a lot of difficult phone calls right now". Just very open and honest about my situation and why there's no way I can leave tomorrow but coming at it from like a "maybe I don't understand where you're coming from, maybe I don't understand why the airlines are doing this right now. So maybe you can tell me and we could figure this out together" instead of just going, "There's no way I'm leaving tomorrow. You guys need to fix this", which I've heard people talk like that and I've heard the conclusion always 90% of the time it's "sorry, sir, we can't help you". 

Kat Jones [00:29:04]
 
But this woman, I honestly think it was because I approached it the way I did, she was like, "You know what? Let's see what we can do for you" for the next 45 minutes she searched for flights for me, and she ended up getting me on a direct flight from the day that I was supposed to leave, which was a better flight than I had before. And so that's a really great example. Obviously strange and definitely not career focused, but it's a good example of how I approach difficult conversations. And it's not me being fake, I'm not being like, "Hi, my name is Kat Jones and I" No, I'm, I just know that I might not know everything. And so I'm not going to go into a conversation where maybe I feel like I'm in the right and they're in the wrong, where I approach it exactly that way, because then there's a high likelihood the person's just going to shut down and not want to communicate with me, or it's going to turn into a difficult conversation. But I always think approaching it in a way that allows for the other person to feel like you're not attacking them. You're just trying to have an open and honest conversation with the goal. They have to know early on that you're trying to come to a mutual conclusion, not that you're trying to prove that they're wrong. Do you know what I mean? 

Dawn Andrews [00:30:16] 

Yeah. 

Kat Jones [00:30:17]

So so that's the approach I have. 

Dawn Andrews [00:30:19] 

It sounds very seek first to understand, then to be understood. 

Kat Jones [00:30:23] 

Exactly. Yeah. That's another thing I've had to learn, right? I'm, as you could probably tell, I talk quite a bit. And so learning to listen before you speak or not asking someone to talk and then just thinking about what you're going to say while they're talking and not listening. It's taken a while to learn that. 

Dawn Andrews [00:30:43] 

Well, and I appreciate that you just said it's taken a while to learn that, that it's not innate. Because sometimes in putting out the podcast and having these conversations with women that are accomplishing wonderful, impactful things, I really want people to understand that all of it has been a learning process for everyone, for myself, for all of my guests, that a lot of the things that any of us individually are struggling within our continued professional development, somebody has gone through it and it's because they were courageous, they were brave. They just decided that this is something they wanted to improve and wanted to learn. And so they've gotten better at it. It's not you didn't shoot out the womb already. Good to go with difficult conversations. See? You know what I mean? 

Kat Jones [00:31:24] 

Oh, for sure. I had to have a lot of awkward, challenging, strange and zero conclusion conversations before I realized that was probably the right path. And again, it's not 100% guaranteed perfect path. It might not work for everybody, but I know, at least in my experiences, that's the path that works for me. 

Dawn Andrews [00:31:45]

Who has helped you along the way in building the business that you have? In getting you to the point that you jumped and started your own thing. And then now that you have started your own thing, who's made an impact for you? 

Kat Jones [00:31:55]

Where do I even begin? I will start to answer that question by saying, I remember being in college and in my early twenties and I hated the term, "It's about who you know" or something like that. It's about who you know. I hated that. I was like, No, I'm an eager beaver. I can do it on my own. I don't need anybody and I quickly learned that, not that I like to lean on people or depend on people or, you know, L.A. is the land of like you show up at a party. And the first question people ask before even asking your name is, what do you do? Because they want to know how you can benefit them. It's not through that lens, but it's okay. Be open to getting help from people. Be open to seeing where that takes you and reciprocate it whenever you can. Actually, my very first job out of college was because of that, where it was a woman that my mom was friends with her mom and she connected me with her and I was like, "Can I pick your brain on getting into marketing and PR?" And one thing led to another and she introduced me to my then soon to be boss at Marvel. It really is about that. And I'd say there are a handful of people that stand out who have been so consistent in my life in terms of mentors and friends. 

Dawn Andrews [00:33:07] 

Do you want to check them? Let's give them a little whoop. Whoop. 

Kat Jones [00:33:10]

Oh, for sure. The first one that comes to mind, his name is Javon Frazier. Or I say Javon Frazier, because one time I was at a barbecue and his mom was like, "pronounce my son's name Jayvon, it's Javon". Even though everybody calls him Jayvon and he's like don't call me Javon, I'm like, "No, your mom told me to call you Javon, so I'm calling you Javon". He's actually the CEO of one of the companies we work with now. I met him back in my Marvel days. I worked with him and for him, and he just became not only a fast friend, but somebody who challenged me, I challenged him. We work so well together and I genuinely believe I wouldn't be where I am today in this capacity without him. So he definitely stands out. Another person that stands out, I've created like a great community around me. I'm very proud of that, is also another person I work with now her name is Rachel Romero.  She actually works at critical roles,  she runs all of their marketing. I met her back in 2011 when I was at Machinima, and we quickly became friends and it was so clear. We're very different in the way we approach different strategies and stuff like that, but in such a good way that really blends itself together with two parallel paths that just work really well together. 

Kat Jones [00:34:21]

And I consider her also a very great close friend and a mentor as well. So those are two people that really stand out to me. And I really just because I'm so cheesy. Oh, my God. And if I was listening to this podcast, I'd eye roll after I hear this, if I was a listener. But I really have to give a lot of credit to my husband, Isaac Krauss who runs an animation studio, Octopie.  When we first got together almost ten years ago. Wow. Which makes my brain explode a little bit. I definitely was still on that and consistently thinking I was just going to be the in-house person for the rest of my life. And he's a serial entrepreneur, like in our entire relationship, I have only known him to run his own companies or do his own thing. So it was a couple of years before I launched Motiv he planted the seed a little bit, he was the one who was like, "You should do your own thing". It was just a casual, offhand comment. And I really do think it set things in motion for me to start to really build that confidence that I eventually needed in order to jump ship. 

Dawn Andrews [00:35:19] 

But it sounds like he's been a good thought partner for you as well. Not just because I'm your husband, but because he's an entrepreneur and he has something to bring to the table. As you made the transition from inside corporate to starting your own thing. 

Kat Jones [00:35:34]

Oh my God. When I had to start to put the pieces together, even getting this stuff for making an LLC and all of QuickBooks and finances and lawyers, all of that was just so overwhelming for me. And he was he had gone through it 18 times before and so he's, "oh no no, just reach out to this person or do this", or he was able to like help me simplify it and really understand it in my language. 

Dawn Andrews [00:35:59]

I want to make clear to you because I share that with you, my husband is an anchor and a rock for me with everything that I've done. I'm 22 years in business now and in the early stages and throughout the entire ride, I used to say if he had a nickel for every time I looked across our desks, our desks look at each other like old school newsroom, like we're staring across at each other in our office. And if he had a nickel for every time, I just melted down into a pile crying like, I can't do this, it's too hard. I'm quitting. Forget it. I'm out of here and he's okay. And then we'd have a conversation about it. So I also am very thankful for my husband's ongoing support and being a sounding board for me. I want to say to folks that are listening, it's also not a requirement because the takeaway is who do you have? Who do you have in your community or who do you have extended in your community? Who be a sounding board that you can pick their brain like you did with your first job. You have the resources already around you. It's just having that extra little bit of courage to be able to reach out and ask for the help, for the advice, for the perspective, whatever it might be. Everything that you need to get started is within arm's reach. You just have to put your head up and be willing to ask. So thank you for sharing your people with me. Now I'm it and have appreciation for them as well. 

Kat Jones [00:37:13]
 
Yeah, I could shout all of them, there's so many more. But obviously time is limited. Yeah. Shout them from the rooftops because they deserve it. 

Dawn Andrews [00:37:20] 

So our mutual friend gave me a few questions. She was like, "here's what I really want you to ask her", you have been rated a top PR pro by Business Insider three years in a row and there also is another distinction just in 2022, another group has given you accolades. What do you attribute that to? Why do you think that has happened? What you doing over there that's working? 

Kat Jones [00:37:40]

Honestly, one of the requirements I have personally when I take on a client is that I absolutely need to make sure I can deliver for them. 

Dawn Andrews [00:37:50]

And how do you do that in advance? How do you know?

Kat Jones [00:37:53]
 
Experience and just understanding the landscape and the conversations we have with media and what's topical? Because sometimes I get people coming to me wanting to get PR around a project or whatever, and I completely understand that they personally have a stake in this and it's extremely valuable for them. Of course, it's probably their baby or something they've worked on, but that doesn't mean automatically that everyone else on the media front is going to feel the same way, especially nowadays. Getting top-tier publications to even bat an eye at something is way more challenging than it was even 3 to 4 years ago. Just because we now live in an information age where Twitter and everything like that is just everybody can like just information overload. And so when I take on a client, want to make sure that I can actually deliver for them, I've been lucky enough, thankfully, with great team members and relationships that we have and strategies that we build to be able to deliver in the way that we say we work is also another requirement that I always have. And again, this is for better or for worse, but it also seems to work with our clients is I'm very transparent with our clients. 

Kat Jones [00:39:05] 

When I was an in-house PR person, I work with a ton of really phenomenal PR firms. Don't get me wrong, they were great, but there was a lot of circumstances where I would come to the table and be like, Okay, we're launching this project because I was the enthusiastic person that this was the project we've been working on. So I had tunnel vision and it was like, This is phenomenal. People are going to love it. We need to get X, Y and Z publications. And a lot of the times some of the PR firms, again, not all of them, just sometimes they'd be like, yes, absolutely, we could do that and they wouldn't deliver. And so I would learn that they would just tell me what I wanted to hear, either to lock in the contract or because maybe they didn't know. So of course, you don't always know, you can't always know. But I am transparent, maybe to a fault with our clients, where I'm always grounded with what I think we can get you or what I think we can accomplish for you and then anything above that is, "Oh great, cool". It's maybe lowballing and then over delivering. 

Dawn Andrews [00:40:00] 

Under promise and overdeliver. Yeah. 

Kat Jones [00:40:02]

Exactly. And I think that approach has really helped me. I learned how to go about it because of seeing how you shouldn't go about it. So that might be why people decided to put me in a list. 

Dawn Andrews [00:40:17]

What I'm taking away is how much you're doing your job, doing your work, but you're also being observant of how work gets done and allowing yourself to learn from that and to help shape what you do and what you build moving forward. Because oftentimes it's so easy, and especially when we're scared to want to do things the way we think other people are doing them. And all we see is the external shell, we don't see the reasons why they're acting, behaving, choosing, doing. We just see the outside results of it. But then we try to try on those outside results and run our businesses or our interactions that way. Unfortunately, it's a recipe for making the things that you're afraid of even worse because it's not built on what's really true for you. But I appreciate that you're both doing the thing and observing the thing and learning from the thing all at the same time. 

Kat Jones [00:41:07]

Especially it's a service-based business and PR especially, like I said, the tactics that people use even two to 3 to 4 years ago are sometimes obsolete now. So it's learning the different tools or the different ways that we could continue to evolve or change our approach and being totally open to that. 

Dawn Andrews [00:41:29] 

How much of that do you think you get? You're really interested in working with clients that are in emerging technologies or changing the way people are communicating. How much of those new ways of doing things in the circle of working with your clients, are you learning from your clients and bringing back to your business? Is that helping to evolve and innovate for you? 

Kat Jones [00:41:46] 

That right there is like the pinnacle of my passion. If I get to work with somebody who challenges me as it relates not only to obviously the PR strategies we might use, but also, "wow, you guys are doing this. I've never", because that also then excites me because I'm like, "Oh, I get to help you build your narrative and tell your story. I get to help you create a North Star. I get to help you figure out what you want people to say when they think about your brand or your company in six months or in a year". And that is that's what I'm passionate about, full stop, especially new things, especially things that people maybe haven't discovered or are just now discovering. And being able to help build those stories and share those stories is so exciting to me, genuinely. Like I'm such a nerd for it. 

Dawn Andrews [00:42:31] 

I love it. Okay, so let's go dark for a minute. You're you have a young business. And what I find is that usually the first 1 to 3 years of a business and you're at the tail end of that three year mark. In the first three years of business, a lot of it is just proof of concept. Do we have something here? Can we turn it into something that makes money, whether it's a service, a product or otherwise? And if you make it through that first three years and you're actually making some money and it's at least breaking even if not turning a profit, then you're at the point in your business where you get to start growing and scaling. And I'm curious, in these first three years, is there a point that you were crossing your fingers or that things did not go the way you thought and you were questioning whether you were going to keep going? 

Kat Jones [00:43:09] 

I am so grateful to be able to say that I luckily not had that moment, and I think that's also because I've been, for better or worse, very nervous about the idea of scaling and growing a company. So my overhead is me and one full time employee currently, and then I staff up and staff down depending on the project. For example, we had a big project, we actually ran PR for E3, which was a big video game convention last year. And so we staffed up, I outsourced and worked with I think our team at one point was like maybe ten or 11 or something like that. And so I definitely expand and contract when necessary, but I think that's why I've been in a place where I've only really felt that making this decision to start my own thing has been the best career move I've ever made. I will tell you, though, that does not mean I've always been like, "Yeah, this is great, is the best idea. This is fantastic". Because I will tell you, for the first year minimum, I was terrified every day. Terrified. 

Dawn Andrews [00:44:10]

Oh, God. Yeah. 

Kat Jones [00:44:11]

Because of the fact that I wanted to deliver so much for my clients and I didn't yet have someone working with me. I hired him at the end of the, and he was just a contractor when I hired him at the end of 2019. I actually have a very distinct moment to where my husband pulled me aside and he's like, "I'm worried about you. You need to get sleep". So there were tough times where it was like I was throwing my every inch into this because I wanted it to work so badly. It didn't come with doubt. It came with exhaustion. It didn't come with doubt because I did automatically see the return. And not just from a monetary perspective, but from a value perspective. I was able to point to the things that I was doing for people and go, I'm doing this. We're doing this like we're delivering. Because those first couple of months, I was always pointing to the things I did at previous companies, and then after that I could go, no we're doing this, and Motiv did it under Motiv. So that's kind of my perspective on it. 

Dawn Andrews [00:45:04] 

So how do you keep it all going? This is one of those open your makeup bag moment. What do you use? What tools do you use? What approaches you use? How do you keep it going when you're putting everything that you have into this thing that you're growing? 

Kat Jones [00:45:16]

This is the simplest little thing. So of course, I'm very, very organized with everything we do. You know, I have a shared folder with my other teammates that includes a folder for every single one of our clients and very strategically broken out folders for very specific things. And that has been from the moment I started, because what I didn't want and I've seen this happen before is someone starts to go full speed ahead in their own business, launching their own business, and then cut to six months later and their folders are a mess because they didn't. Oh, sorry. 

Dawn Andrews [00:45:46]

 So you can't see me. But I'm pointing to myself with two big fingers right now. I'm outing myself. It's all right. 

Kat Jones [00:45:57]

I learned the hard way in previous roles when I would start and then I'd go full speed ahead. And then all of a sudden I was six months into a role and I'm like, Oh my God, my computer is a mess. I don't know where to find things. I don't know how to do that. So I just was like, okay, from the beginning, we are going to be organized. And so we have a very organized system in place to ensure that we know where everything is at all times. And then also honestly, because there have been a handful of companies that I worked with previously where you couldn't get any work done during the day because you're always in meetings. And half those meetings were completely unnecessary. They might have been necessary for other people, but you were just thrown in because you're like, "Oh, let's make sure the PR person is there" and then you're at the end of the meeting and you're like, "What did you need me here for?". 

Kat Jones [00:46:40]

It's so important to me, I block out time in my calendar to just do work so that nobody puts any time in certain areas during the week so that I can actually concentrate on work or else I would be on calls from 9 to 5 sometimes, and then all of a sudden I'm like, wait, I haven't been able to be productive in terms of being able to again, it's all about delivering. It's all about delivering for the client. So that's that's like a tactic I have is just blocking time to be able to actually get work done and not let everybody just throw like a lot of people use the calendar and things like that. They're like, Yeah, just schedule time. And I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. I don't want anybody to just randomly throw an invite on my calendar. I want to be able to have oversight on that and then other like just general PR tools, we use Muck Rack that's like our go to for anybody who works in public relations, it's a really valuable tool to find different reporters or different publications and really helps you narrow down on certain topics and areas that are valuable for your clients. So that's one we use, I think it's pretty limited. We use Slack, obviously that's the go to communication tool and we use Asana for some of our project management. 

Dawn Andrews [00:47:48]

Excellent. Yeah, I've used Asana, I'm now an Airtable convert. I'm kind like deep in hard with airtable it's just blowing my mind. And that's a, it's almost a podcast in itself. My rhapsody about airtable, so. 

Kat Jones [00:48:02]

Oh, we like Asana, but it's not intuitive really. So I'm all about hearing about airtable, so on you know, side combo we can do that because I've used Monday and even Monday is a little it's not as intuitive to me either. So anything that really feels I don't know, I have my own systems too. We use Asana, but then I'm like, I just have my own little to do on a Google doc, right? But I usually refer to more often than Asana. 

Dawn Andrews [00:48:27] 

Everybody's got their secret yellow legal pad, whatever that looks like for them. Oh yes, of course, I use the fancy app, but he's my secret yellow legal pad over here. 

Kat Jones [00:48:35] 

Yeah, cause there's, there's almost something ritualistic about it. 

Dawn Andrews [00:48:38] 

What feels good to write things down. 

Kat Jones [00:48:41] 

And checklist, crossing things out is it's my love language. 

Dawn Andrews [00:48:47]

Which speaking of, oh, my gosh. So again, back to the light stalking. You do have a very Leslie Knope energy about you. She is my spirit animal. That is who I use every time I have to use a gif gif. However, one says it these days. 

Kat Jones [00:49:00]

That is honestly the biggest compliment anyone's ever given to me. Because I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. 

Dawn Andrews [00:49:05]

Oh, we're like round three through the entire Parks and Rec seasons with our kids. It's like third time watching it through and I just I love a binder, I love the enthusiasm. It makes me so happy. 

Kat Jones [00:49:18]

Like, positive, but also not positive to a fault. More so, just like we can do this guys. 

Dawn Andrews [00:49:23]

Yes. So I appreciate that about you Kat. Okay. As we wrap up, there's a question that I ask everybody. Imagine yourself standing in the middle of Times Square, you will not be hit by a cab, everything is safe. You can stand there in the middle of all of the bright, sparkly billboards and the biggest one is for you. And on that billboard, you get to share a message with female leaders. What would you want to share with them? 

Kat Jones [00:49:49] 

Oh, my goodness. Honestly, this is, I'm just like stealing from somebody else. But it has done wonders for me just to have something so simple playback in my head any time I get frustrated or any time I get down on myself. And it really is just having that I it would be like maybe like a burnt orange color just to catch people's attention. And also because my hair color and it would be work hard and be nice to people really honestly or in another way challenge yourself, challenge others, be good, do good, work hard or something like that. Like simple things. Because what I've I've also noticed is like, again, as much as I talk a lot, simplicity goes so far and especially when you're communicating and especially when you're trying to get a point across. And so something like that, as direct as that can go really far when someone's having a tough day and they don't want to be over elaborate, elaborated to, they just want a direct comment that might change their day or their perspective. 

Dawn Andrews [00:50:49] 

Love it. Okay. Last thing because we talked about at the very beginning, go to karaoke song. 

Kat Jones [00:50:54] 

Oh. Goodness. Okay. So it depends on the mood. If I'm with a theater crew, if I'm with like people who understand it's all that Jazz, a thousand percent. 

Dawn Andrews [00:51:05]

I'm going to roll, I'm going to roll a Fosse shoulder right now. I'm rolling a Fosse shoulder. 

Kat Jones [00:51:10]

Oh, for sure. Jumping. If I'm with a Disney crew, it's part of your world with a Little Mermaid. And then if I'm just feeling sultry, it's a little Amy Winehouse. Sorry, you ask for one. Well, and then I like to rock. So it's like my brain farting, Call me. 

Dawn Andrews [00:51:24] 

Oh, nice, nice. I love that you got a bunch in your pocket. You got to like a whole array. So when we have our next backyard karaoke sing along and we need to mix it up, we'll bring in we'll just get your playlist and we'll run through it. 

Kat Jones [00:51:37]

Oh I, I legit have a playlist on my phone a thousand percent I thought I lost it. 

Dawn Andrews [00:51:41]

Oh God. 

Kat Jones [00:51:41] 

I'm like I thought I updated my phone and I thought I lost it. And I, I genuinely was sad. Like, I was sad for a few hours. 

Dawn Andrews [00:51:50] 

Oh. Well, thank you again for spending your time with me today. I'm so appreciative. I've learned a ton having the opportunity to talk to you, to learn from you for all of the sharing that you've done. Thank you so much. 

Kat Jones [00:52:03]
 
Oh, my God. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I wholeheartedly reciprocate it. I can't wait to continue to have conversations with you. I think I'm going to learn so much and I love having women like you in my life. It's wonderful. It's such a blessing. 

Dawn Andrews [00:52:14] 

I agree. Well, we'll talk again. Soon. 

Kat Jones [00:52:17]

Okay sounds good. Thank you. Have a good one. 

Dawn Andrews [00:52:21]

Thank you for joining us this week to view the complete show notes and all the links mentioned in today's episode. Visit MyGoodWoman.com. Before you go, make sure you follow or subscribe to the podcast so you can receive fresh episodes when they drop. And if you're enjoying My Good Woman, leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Reviews are one of the major ways that Apple ranks their podcasts. So even though it only takes a few seconds, it really does make a difference. This episode was produced by me and Cathleen O'Shaughnessy. Thank you again for joining me, Dawn Andrews, in this episode of My Good Woman.