006 | Creating A Movement The World Is Waiting For as Female Leaders -with Elise Pettus

When your nicely-planned life and career take a turn for the unexpected, it’s easy to let yourself get dragged down, crawl into a hole, and feel like a total failure. 

Or you could do like My Good Woman, Elise Pettus, and realize that the kind of support you need doesn’t exist yet, find a dozen kindred souls, and start building the movement you know your people need. 

Elise is the Founder and Editorial Director of UNtied, an online community that connects women navigating separation and divorce so they can support and educate one another through the process.

Elise took “the worst that could happen” and turned it into her inspiration and motivation to become a bold leader for the thousands of women in her community.

In this episode, Elise and I discuss

• How Elise’s divorce inspired her to found UNtied - now a thriving community with over 3000 members.
• How to be brave when you're shy, and why flipping your “leadership switch” can help you become more courageous on behalf of others. 
• Growing a small gathering of women into a community of thousands

This episode at a glance:
[06:44] When the worst has already happened, it removes a lot of the fear that would otherwise stop you from taking risks and doing extraordinary things.

[20:13] How growing a big movement can start small and organically - by filling a void and creating what your people tell you they need. 

[30:35] If what you want to offer (and what your people need) doesn’t exist yet, build your model and pave your own road. 

[42:06] Giving people you work with permission to boss you around and use their “stern math teacher voice” to stop being in your head and get more and better things done.

 [44:02] Helping your people feel safe enough to be vulnerable around you lets you have open conversations about the best way to work together.

[47:11] “Hard skills” directly impact revenue and move the needle. But a business is made up of people, and you need the “soft skills” to work with them effectively. 

[53:58] If Elise had a do-over, the only thing she’d change is to ask for help or find a strategic partner (or business coach) sooner. 

[53:58] The main element Elise loves to bring out in people is resilience. It’s hard work but so worth it. 

[01:04:50] Elise’s essential advice for women going through a divorce. 

Resources and links mentioned in this episode:

• Check out UNtied - The Thinking Woman’s Divorce Resource
• Follow Elise on Instagram (@Untiedllc), LinkedIn, and YouTube
• Read the 2015 New York Times article that put UNtied on the map
• Tools Elise mentions: Asana, Google Drive, Dropbox, and ActiveCampaign
• Get the fantastic Year Task Planner that helps Elise get everything done
• Watch Paris is Burning - the fabulous movie about the 1980s drag scene in New York.  
• Meet playwright, screenwriter, novelist, musician, and marvelous multitasker, Suzan-Lori Parks
• Never heard of the Pomodoro Technique? This article explains how you can use it to get into the zone and stay focused for 

Want to increase revenue and impact? Listen to “She's That Founder” for insights on business strategy and female leadership to scale your business. Each episode offers advice on effective communication, team building, and management. Learn to master routines and systems to boost productivity and prevent burnout. Our delegation tips and business consulting will advance your executive leadership skills and presence.

Transcript

My Good Woman
Ep. 06 | Creating A Movement The World Is Waiting For as Female Leaders -with Elise Pettus

Hello friends. Welcome to my good woman, the podcast for new and future female leaders. I'm your host. Dawn Andrews, a happily married hockey mom and the founder and CEO of free range thinking business strategy consulting. Grab a seat at the table with me each week for candid conversations with culture shifting, glass ceiling busting, trailblazing women leading impactful enterprises. 

We discuss what makes them tick, how they get it all done, and actionable strategies to help you lead with confidence and grow the visibility, reach and revenue of your business. We're classy ladies, but we don't bleep the swear words. Listener discretion is advised. Dawn,

Dawn.
Hello, my good woman, you're on my mind today. I was thinking about how you're doing great things in your business, and then, boom, you've decided your marriage is ending. You may feel like you're the only one struggling with this, and that no one understands what you're going through. You may not know where to turn for help or what your next step should be, and at this moment, you can't imagine leading your life with power, much less your business. T

his is where my good woman, Elise Pettis, comes in. She's the founder and editorial director of untied, an online community of 1000s that connects separating and divorced women to support and educate one another as they navigate the divorce process. So what does this have to do with being a bold female leader? 

Well, after Elise went through her own divorce, she realized there was a need for community and education around this topic, so she found it untied to fill that need. What's more bold than that in this conversation, Elise and I talk about how to be brave when you're shy. We discuss how flipping your leadership switch can help you become more courageous on behalf of others, how a small gathering of women can grow into a community of 1000s, and the tools and teams she uses to make running the business possible. If you're not in a relationship or considering divorce or even leading your own company, you'll be inspired by Elise taking what she describes as the worst that can happen and transforming it into the brilliant beginning of the next chapter for herself and so many other women. I give you my good woman. 

Elise Pettis, welcome to the podcast. I am so glad to have you here, the folks that are listening. This is, this is a reunion of sorts. Elise and I have had the opportunity to check back in with each other a little bit, and you'll learn more about that as we get into the conversation. But why don't we start first with a quick introduction of you in the world of untied Share, share a little bit about what the organization is and what you're up to, sure. So since 2013

I've been running a network for women who are navigating divorce and reinventing their life afterwards. And it began as a as something that I felt like I needed, and thanks to Dawn's help, frankly, it really became a real thing. And today we have, you know, a list of 3000 or so regular, regular women who come in not just because they're in the thick of divorce, but also because they're, you know, going back to work or dating or even getting remarried, and there are all kinds of events that we host that sort of serve all those needs. And the other, the other big dream that I had when I started it was that I would create a real community that actually connected with each other. And it began as a sort of a live events group that met once a month, twice a month, and now it's become something that hosts live events. But in addition, we have all kinds of like virtual meetings where people actually get to connect with each other and get to really go deep with each other around this very kind of thorny issue of divorce, big, tough transition that is made a lot lighter and

kind of richer. In fact, if you can go through it, sharing and bonding with others who really get it. So it's a membership organization, and I have genuinely
loved every minute of doing it. I'm curious for you whether you saw yourself in previous life, before untied as a leader, a galvanizer, a gatherer, a person that brings people together.

Actually, no, I thought I was going to be a journalist or a documentary filmma.
Her. In other words, I always saw myself as someone invisible behind the scenes, helping other people to see the story. I remember my very first job after college, was working on this documentary called Paris is burning about the subculture of drag queens, drag balls in Harlem and back in 1985 That was shocking to most people, but they were so human, and I remember how much I loved being part of
allowing the world to see the sort of the richness of that culture and and dehumanize it. So I always thought of myself as behind the scenes in every sense, and I also kind of went to school thinking at least the people that I really admired were all novelists and artists and and if they were in journalism, they were long form, you know, journalists or wrote non, you know, non fiction books for a living. And so that's really kind of where I had my my my headlights pointed most of my life. Yeah, sort of solitary pursuits, almost always solitary pursuits, or in documentary films, which I worked on, you know, for about 10 years before then I switched to magazines. It was collaborative, but it was so behind the scenes. You know, I was schlepping the equipment, driving the van, beating the crew. I was sort of a facilitator for the story. I guess. Do you think that the divorce called you into leadership? Like was it was going through that process, something that's flipped that switch for you?

Definitely. I think that one of the big pieces of it was that that was a crisis, right? And when the worst thing that could that you, that could possibly happen to you, actually happens to you, it changes things in ways you wouldn't expect. I remember a friend of mine whose husband died 911 and we were together a lot after that, and I wondered why she wasn't afraid. And she said, Lise, the worst things already happened. What's to be fearful of? And in a similar way, I have to say that I was less fearful about what I was supposed to you know, I really had this very clear sense of this pantheon of writers that one day I might join, if I only had time. And when I went through the divorce, lots of things happened, a I just didn't have that sense of, I need to be like this crew. You know, I was having such a strong experience, and then also just it was hard to deny that strong experience. And while I was going through it, I thought, God, I knew I could do this, if I could just reach out and connect with somebody who's been through it, a woman who's been through it, who has kids, who could help me, not just with the concrete pieces of finding an attorney and being smart about which attorney to hire, etc, but also who gets it, who could actually sort of let me know that there's life on the other side of this event, because I was the first one in my social circle to get divorced, and it just seemed like one should be able to find that on the internet. I was thinking, Oh, thank God for the internet. I'll just go online and I'll find that great community. And I remember having done that when my mom had cancer. You could go, you know, back in the days of these, you know, just email lists, yeah, and connect with people who, who are trying, doing trials. And it was very, it became a very intense bond. But there was nothing like that in this sort of, in this period of time, was like 2010 2011

there was, I think, divorce magazine with a lot of legal information, with teeny, teeny, teeny, teeny print, very dry, all these blogs where, where it was kind of like a vomit of emotion. I caught him. It was like the gotcha blogs, and I wanted to connect with people around moving forward in a really honest way. But not, you know, making it all seem much nicer than it was. But, yeah, but around moving forward, not just like sitting in a puddle of of of self pity, because that's we all you know that's an easy thing to do when you feel like your entire life is turned upside down when you got called into leadership,

like you couldn't find what you were looking for, so you created it for yourself, and because the worst thing had already happened, and that's something that I noticed a lot with women, is that they there's a hesitancy to even claim the word leader. Like to call themselves a leader. They'll say, Oh, I'm, you know, they might say I'm a boss. Like, that's kind of a, you know, cultural term these days, oh, I'm a boss, or i The person in charge. But nobody ever calls themselves a leader, and it's really unusual, because I think that there's imposter syndrome, perfectionism, a lack of confidence. And it sounds like the you know what? What happened, what changed in your life, just blew up, all three of those things. So you're like, All right, let's just, let's just.

It to it,
right? And I guess the reason, I mean, I even, even now, I don't think, Oh, I'm a leader.
What, what happened was, there was no such animal as untied. There was no and I thought, well, maybe I'll, I'll just throw it out there and see what would happen. Tell me about some of Tell me about some of the, you know, the iterations of the organization, the things that you had to manage through, and
skills you've needed to learn. First of all, I thought, well, I have to be journalist, so I'm going to make it an online magazine. And I can't remember exactly why, I realized suddenly that wasn't exactly what I was yearning for. The thing I was yearning for was actually the connection, and we didn't have zoom back then. So I thought, Well, I'm just going to gather people I don't know them yet, because I'm the only one I know who's going through this. I sent out emails to every single person I knew, saying, if you know any women, and I decided it should be women, because nobody want and, you know, I lived in a very heteronormative neighborhood, and I thought they were going to come if they thought they might see their ex. And I also didn't see that I've been writing for women's magazines. I felt more comfortable with that audience. I had a feeling they might also want to gather around the well and connect with others around this whole experience, this whole, you know, horrifying time, and they so I sent these strange women an email, and 17 women showed up in my home. And by the way, I took me months to think that I could actually have them to my home. It seemed so unprofessional. And somebody introduced me to somebody who was a, she she had been the, I think she'd been the Cosmo editor, and we had lunch, and she said, at least just have it in your house. And I was like, have it in my house. That just sounds so unprofessional. Stand

Alone. Yet, I had this house that had recently been vacated by my ex, and it was too big for me. And my kids were away half the time, and it was an entertaining house. And I thought, well, she's got a point, maybe, yeah, gonna lend itself to being this, this gathering space. And it was sort of, I guess somebody called it a salon early on, and so that was how it kind of, and we met one January night and by tapped a writer found on Forbes online who wrote a column on women in finance and divorce. And these 17 women showed up, and they at the end of that night, Dawn, they were just so they were so moved. They left that room going, Oh my God, thank you so much. First of all, I don't feel like a freak. Second of all, I learned 10 times more than I would have even if I had been on the phone with somebody like that, because the woman next to me was asking the question that I didn't even know to ask. So now I feel like 10 times smarter, and they made their new best friend, like some of those women in that first gathering are still friends and take trips once a year. That was 11 years ago. I think I just want to acknowledge you at least, because in doing that, first of all, you changed your own life, being willing to try and just go for it and create this thing that hadn't existed. You changed your own life. You changed the life those 17 women that attended and by extension, everyone else that was connected to them, like you. I want to make present that in doing this like in empowering women this way, you created this beautiful, safe space in your home where they could just like, be in, be in it, and be raw with what they were dealing with at the moment, and that is because you chose to step into it. I thought it would be difficult, but what I do remember doing a lot of that first gallery was laughing about stuff that would probably be too dark to have uttered anywhere else. There was no community like that one where I realized we all know this, we don't have to be all
careful about bringing up, you know, the D thing that happened to you, like everybody you know, from my kids, you know, community, they were all so terrified of it. And here was this was such a big relief for all of us to kind of be able to just talk about it and even laugh about the things that seem Yeah, the dark humor that. And it was so anyway, that that moment, I just realized this has to exist. This has to exist going forward. And so that that was about finance. The next month, we made it about hiring a lawyer. And I recall a lot of women thinking, some of them came, you know, further down. They were further down the the the road in their divorce process, and just, I wish, I I wish I'd done this, and I wish I'd done that, because I know for a fact that one of the things that that happened early on is I realized when people don't know.
Know what their options are in divorce, they tend to go with the most sort of, you know, old fashioned, scary litigation model, even if they don't have to. And it ends up costing them 10 times more money. And it ends up because that's just what they knew, that's they're supposed to do battle. That's the paradigm, exactly. And their parents or their uncle or, you know, in my case, I remember I didn't know anybody except, you know, my uncle, who was on his third marriage, and who all his only piece of advice knew is take them to the cleaners. Not that helpful, and not going to be good for the kids and so and not, not, certainly not a holistic approach, which is something that you've built to be able to, you know, help women through all the different versions of themselves as they navigate this, right? Because you find, I think I, early on, I realized we're elevating each other through this, and we're
there's just so many things going on. It was an affirming of each other. And also, you discover that when you, you know, go through divorce, you think, Oh my gosh. Half of me just disappeared. But then you realize, oh no, no, no, there are all these rooms that haven't been occupied. Let's open them up, and suddenly you have a community that sort of starts to recognize and acknowledge and see and also maybe do things with you, like, I don't know, go travel to Patagonia, or go to a dance festival or a jazz band, all these things that I got to see women sort of loom into over the years has just been one of those reminders yes and yes and yes. It's really great to be able to go through this with others.
Dawn. What are some of the challenges that you faced, or moments of self doubt as you pursued this as a whole path? What? What came up for you? It was very exciting to suddenly have these very widely respected divorce attorneys want to come to my living room suddenly and talk to women. They had never actually talked to lay people. They'd only generally talk to other attorneys. As my attorney said in the beginning, we don't do that. It's lawyers talking to lawyers. The human element has left the building. It seemed as though they were actually fearful of talking to people, and I didn't understand why I thought was there some legal snag with that? I don't know. But anyhow, I loved, I loved just having suddenly seeing things in a new direction and seeing them have fun and meet other lawyers that they wouldn't have met, who maybe practiced. You know, I brought lawyers that really genuinely were sort of enemies like mediation and traditional litigator and off the table, they might have said, those litigators
and, you know, litigation like God, if those mediators could only write a sentence, you know, there's a lot of right. And then they're in there, and they're finding that actually they like each other. And then over the years, they start referring clients to each other, because obviously, you know, not everyone can mediate. Some people have to litigate. Some people don't have the cash to litigate, and also have a much simpler process, and they would, you know, refer. So that was all great. So then when I started to go to kind of professional events, maybe to meet other terms, this is what kept happening to me. So what are you? Are you a lawyer? Are you a financial advisor, or are you a therapist? And I didn't have a box to check, and even though it doesn't, it wasn't a humongous problem, but it did mean that I was locked out of certain rooms, and even though they'd say, Oh, you got to come to the SO and SO event. And I get there and they'd say, Well, you know, let's say it was like a BMI kind of thing, like, right, some sort of networking event. What box do I check for you? And I would say, there really isn't a box yet, you know, and, and so that would kind of
that that just made it a guess of a little bit of a hurdle in terms of getting into a professional colleague community. So it really only had to happen in my living room in there, in the early days. And by the same token, even though women who would come through untied and go to the events, and I remember, like, after a year, they were just like, oh my gosh, we love our lives. You know, now you got to find us the great single men. That's another piece of it. But
there they were telling their friends, when their friends were brave enough to say, I think I'm getting a divorce. But one of the things I found difficult is because there was no other sort of
the idea of a divorce community or divorce network didn't exist. So, yeah, it was a harder sell. It's like, okay, you got, everybody knows you got to have a lawyer. Everybody knows, you know, if you have complicated assets, you need someone to help you. On that front, you might need a real estate.
Practical pieces. Do you have your community? Nobody asked that question. It seemed like not an essential, right? So that was hard to try to show people the value. How did you solve it? What did you, you know? What did you do that eventually started to break through for you? I think a lot of it was word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth. And maybe because it's interesting, because I started in in in Brooklyn, New York,
it might have been this way in any big city, the people who tend to come out, the women who tend to come out, and get into a room and roll up their sleeves and go, Okay, I'm gonna learn about this. I'm gonna learn about how to take care of my you know, kids during they tend to be
very verbal, very open, very self starting, and they tend to be the kind of people who would tell their friends they they aren't hiding it, right? So that helped, because I had these, these, these early clients who were, by their very nature, you know, people who wanted to to share the good word, you know, and send their friends, and then,
and then, you know, they asked me to solve the next problem, which was the man problem, like the part new partner problem, and I thought
it was going to be cinchy. It didn't turn out to be So cinchy. There were no singles events for women in their 50s. So I was like, What the hell? I guess I'll try to come up with one, which was tricky, and I had to do the same thing. I wrote every every single person I had on my personal email list, and said, I think the subject line was looking for, I just need a few good men. And everybody at that point sort of knew what I was doing. I said, you know, you know that I've been working with these women, and they're so game, and they're so smart, and they're so present and evolved and and, I just need to know if there, if you could send me the name of a great guy who you'd want to have dinner with, because I'm going to set up a series of dinners so that people can meet each other. And about 200 or so emails. I got eight names and started there, and it just seemed like it was going to be difficult. Was going to be like pulling teeth to get these men who never heard of me and who were already probably embarrassed about their divorce status to come to a singles event. And it was one of the hardest things I did, but I I was determined, because I wanted to deliver for these women anyway, that event, you know, one once word got out about those events,
even people who would never come to a women's,
you know, whatever they thought of it, you know, if they were not the kind of person who would come to a support group, and by the way, I wasn't necessarily the kind of person who would go to a support I don't think anybody thinks they're the kind of person to go to any support group anytime, not that we don't, that every single one of us couldn't use multiples of those in our lives. But I think everybody thinks that they're not a support group kind of person. It's so true. Like the best testimonial we ever had is a beautiful French movie was like, and we did not do that. So I was really, I just, I just would never do it, but I did it, and it was the best thing I ever did. But so once we started having these weirdo events with guys, because we did get some good, interesting guys, then word spread to a lot of other people, and that that's when somehow the New York Times got wind of it. And I think that writer must have gone, I'm divorced. I would never go to one of those info beds because, you know, but I want to go to one of those dinners anyway. So that ended up landing us a story in The New York Times, which then really exponentially got the word out, which was incredibly fortuitous. I didn't think, oh my gosh, you've got to do something really flashy and get depressed, but it was so helpful. And to this day, women who were happily married back in 2015
when that piece came out. I remembered that. Remembered that piece, and so that's one of the ways that we got a big jump up in the third year, I guess in the second or third year we were in business. That helped a lot. And that was really just kind of wanting to make good, like, following karma, you know, yeah, like, meet them where they want, where their needs are, here. Yeah, it just sounded like you were listening to your community, and it pulled you forward. Were there any times that you wanted to
quit? Yeah, I think, I think I had some frustrations along the way. I think that early on
I was, I was, I remember being stymied by the tech piece of it. You were so helpful to me, because not only did you sort of hold all the dreams and all the all the terrors that I was struggling with in the very early.
A's, but you also, and this is what I say to people about you, it's like also had all the, like, concrete answers you, or you had some real concrete
solutions for me. And I was so hungry for that. And not only, I mean, you were, you convinced me that I could master them. So, for example, this idea of, you know, the first CRM, like the customer relationship management, which
was the bane of my existence for the beginning, because it kept misfiring. And there were times where it was just, it was so humiliating to send out something that you didn't know you were sending. Yeah, you know, so those kinds of moments made me feel like I've just lost space with my entire community.
But then, of course,
realistically, I knew that like way worse things had happened to me during my divorce process, and I could, I could, I could deal and, yeah, it's funny,
because that having gone through some painful years with that where, by the way, I had a tech helper. I don't know if you remember, but he was my age. I'm 5959
and so he could sort of master it. But he wasn't,
was it? He wasn't a digital native, as the kids say these days.
So there were a lot of F ups.
And you were, you know, here I was, I was leading somebody who had more computer knowledge than I was, because he, that was, he was a WordPress expert, but he also had just, he just didn't have any ambition to do this kind of work, so I had to kind of keep those, keep pushing, keep pushing anyway. It's funny, because when you you know, I was thinking about, what are the things that really make my life work? And now it's my CRM, which I absolutely love, yeah, well, and shout it out, because, you know, there are women that are starting things, that are listening to the podcast. So what tools are you using that you find super helpful in your business? Well, I started with MailChimp, and very soon, while I was working with you that we seem to grow out of MailChimp, I think MailChimp has probably gotten a lot more sophisticated, but I found that in early days, I needed to send out emails to people who are right in the thick of the divorce, yeah, and the people who had been through it three years before, they didn't want to get those emails, you know, and I couldn't keep hammering those emails at them, or I was going to drive them away. So, yeah.
So it was just a lot of it was just a big relief to be able to sort of meet different segments of my of my community, where they were, yeah, so that, what are you using now? So I went through a number of iterations. There was Infusionsoft, which was the one that kept misfiring. And I don't know if it's gotten easier to use, but we called it confusion, soft forever, okay, and I love the right time. Ever helpful. I think I remember saying to you a couple times, it's like, oh, this is great. Somebody bought me a plane, or there's an airplane, damn it. Though, I can't figure out how to fly it. Pilot, yeah, now I have to pay for a pilot. And so there was a lot of,
you know, angst over that we I can't remember if we had a but now we're using Active Campaign. And I know I love the Active Campaign. I love
I really do. I know that I'm not
as I'm probably not, you know, I'm not the most sophisticated pilot, but, and some of it is downright tedious, for sure. And actually, I have, still, I have hired someone who does a lot of the the, you know, there's something like 12 Steps. Sometimes if I get a date, I have to change a date. Everybody's kind of like, no, yeah, because I have to change it in so many different places. However, I love it. I just every time I send out a campaign, now,
I think I just feel like like, you
know, because it's just kind of a wonderful thing to be able to send out something that reaches, reaches your your peeps, and you can really speak directly to them that really feels good, and also that you know that if you're as your list grows, you're not bombarding everybody with the exact same thing. You can segment them. And now we are moving towards, since covid happened, yeah, we have been entirely online, which means that we're no longer just a little New York based salon or, you know, membership events organization. We're all around the country. And so I now can send out, you know, West Coast crew emails to my West Coast people.
And because I'm also trying to make sure that they can connect with each other in different ways. So
I just love Active Campaign. Like, there's so many magical things that can do that I never would have. What helps you be, uh, what helps you lead your business better? Like, what, what tools do you use? Or who do you talk to? How do you, how do you continue to grow your skill set as you've grown this organization? That's such a great question, in part because I don't have other people doing exactly what I do. Yeah,
you're building your own model. There isn't necessarily. It's not like you look to a competitor to see how they're doing something, or you're you're paving your own road. That's definitely how it was in the beginning. And I do remember early days, and I'm switching gears a little bit here. I remember early days, people asking me, when that, especially when that New York Times piece came out, they asked me, Is there anything like this in Texas? Is there anything like this in DC. Is there something like this in San Francisco? And I literally was hoping and wishing that there was, and I did look into it. I I did my best, and I could not find any, except for one group called something like sexy moms on Chardonnay club or something and
and even then, you know, they were just hanging out. It was a community that wasn't so much bringing in knowledgeable experts or really trying to up the game, right? It was, it was a gathering of some gathering, yeah, and, I think, yeah. And so that made, that made it really kind of great in some ways for me, because I was trying things out very freely. I was I could take risks and do different things and just kind of listen to what people really needed. Now, I think there are, because I thought, who doesn't who doesn't need this? Who, what woman you know that I know like wouldn't benefit from this, even if you're too shy to go into somebody's living room and and talk up, you know what it's like? You know, recovering from, you know, your husband's affair, you you still it's nice to be on
you can, like, tune in to a video where people are talking about what that's really like. Yeah, I was just curious. I was curious about, you know, how you how you up level your skills as this, this organization has grown. What do you do to to step into the next version? Now, there are other groups doing this kind of thing. So I find that, you know, I'm talking to, I'm talking to one of them
this week called, she's from a group called the X experts. And there's, there's number of these kinds of groups. And I'm, I'm actually really interested in what they're doing, how they're different, what they're they might be doing that I should consider doing, or how they're different, and what, how we meet each other. You know, like, I've met some, some women who kind of really like focus on specific income levels, and they want to reach, you know,
millions. And I feel like that might not be where I am. This clientele that comes my way tends to be either small business owners, creative artists, they're all, they're similar, or they're been stay at home moms, and they tend to be gathered in cities, not that everyone is in in our community, but I saw so that's one way I'm I'm giving my skills sharp, and it's starting to meet others that are doing similar things. Is it awkward to have those conversations, to start a conversation with a completely unknown person in this space that that may be considered a competitor. Do you feel concerned about it? Or, you know what early, early, early, early on, I I felt like this was this world was so big. All I knew is I had this feeling that divorcing women
needed help. And back when I thought it was going to be a magazine of sorts, I was like, what divorcing woman isn't paying serious money either, to
on her therapy, on her getting back into her career, yeah, on her wardrobe, because she's going to get out there, on her hair, on her skin, all of these, there's just so many fields. And I thought, wow, this is this. This is a infinitely large, you know, I felt like I had land base on the planes, right? And I remember reaching out to a woman who who was a coach, and connecting with her, going, Ah, I'm so glad to meet you. And she was like, very much, like this, pulling away and and I didn't quite get it, so I was like, Can I come by your office and just talk about how, how interesting, like what we're doing? And I was just that that was who I was. And I remember watching, I remember her lip quivering.
Maybe you're the one that making people feel.
Awkward. I love it.
I didn't understand it. And so
she we kind of, we ended up doing an event or two together,
and she was very much a coach. She had a very different model, so it didn't feel to me like we were competitors. But she did not have the same sort of like running at you with open arms. Yeah. So that I thought was interesting. And again, I still do think
there are. I remember another company that started up called
onward. I think it was called and it was meeting a younger demographic. For the most part, marriage had nothing to do with it. Lawyers weren't really a part of it. It was like, you've just broken up with your first long term. Live in. You got to move out, you got a job, you got to stay on top of you got to do all these things. It was like a concierge service and okay, we loved meeting each other and sharing people back and forth. There's not a whole lot in this space? Yeah, that does the same kind of thing.
I have not felt like that, like any sort of oddness or competitiveness. I'm curious now too. You're 10 years into this. You've grown from this is a sparkle in your idea to 3000 members across the United States and international as well. Do you have people outside? Sometimes we do. I mean, we have, you know, but it's a smattering at this point, because partly, I think it's just because the hours that we host things you know don't, don't match up, like people in Kenya for a while, you know, like a friend group in Kenya, some in London, definitely in London, who helps you get it all done.
So I have, right now, one helper who is
wildly efficient, and he and I are,
does she have a clone, a twin or a sister?
Well, it's interesting, because I learn about myself working with her. And I think she said to me the other day that she notices things about herself working with me. She she works virtually. She's really only worked virtually. And I was kicking and screaming about virtual assistants in the beginning. And I think you probably remember, Oh, I remember, like virtual assistants are the answer. And at the time, I really relied upon someone sitting across from me at the kitchen table. And I realized part of it is my ADD part of it is just that organized me. And even if it was, I had to kind of keep on that person and, like, keep them focused, that organized me. So without that, I felt very adrift for a while, and this woman came to me
as she agreed to be, you know, come in at least one day, and then she had a kid, and then she just kind of moved back, and that kind of opened the floodgates, because then I was okay with virtual assistants for the most part. And so what do you have in place, you know, I'm thinking about other women running businesses. What do you have in place that helps manage that virtual assistant relationship so that your business and your life can run a little better? We're still using Asana, and I, I love Asana because, again, it also helps me stay organized. It is. It kind of reminds me of what I love is, you know, tasks, tasks, tasks, which for my brain, is really helpful. I mean, the other thing I love, which saves me is, this is so old school, but it's a planner that a friend of mine very this is a Paula Barry, oh yeah, she gives it to me every year. She's a very effective development,
development person, and she it's just, it's, it's like a week where you can just break it down so beautifully. Okay, I'm going to show you a week that's empty. You can't really see it, I guess. But you have, you know, the month, the week, the day, and it's all kind of, it's organized so, so beautifully. So for me, I kind of like that, because I'm of the, you know, that era, but Asana is great because you've got, like, your little checklist, and you can see the things you've already done right there, whereas with this, I'd have to go back back to see if, oh, do we tackle that job? Well, I know with this honor, you've shared it with your virtual assistant. So you're in a you're on the same page, so to speak. It's a digital one, but you're, you're sharing the same conversation, yeah. And then, of course, you know, Google Drive, which I still kind of dislike, because I just my brain. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work the way things like Dropbox do, but that has been super, you know, super useful. I don't think I'm on the cutting edge of new, you know, new software, new platforms you don't need to over complicate a girl. It's all right, I still would love to learn about I'm sure there are things that you know would like up my game in terms of staying.
On, on task, or being able to, you know a friend of mine, I think it was, I think was Christian, whose girlfriend
was the playwright Susan Lori Parks, and who is known for working on, like, six major projects, like a television show and two plays and and I was like, How does she do that? He said, Well, she puts egg timers on and I'll open a cabinet, and the egg timers will fall on my head. It's like,
25 minutes of focus here. 25 minutes of focus there. Well, I'm like, a lot of egg timers. I would just kind of lose them all over the place, but there's going to be something out there that will help me do that. Like, okay, you've done your email. You know, work for the day time to start thinking about scheduling the next six months that kind of thing. Yeah. So, like, I need a boss sometimes to remind me to do that. Oh, for sure. And sometimes my virtual assistant can be that she's like, I have nothing to put on this calendar leaves until you sit down. And so sometimes I literally have to, like, shut all the doors. That's my dream, Elise, is that my, all of my people, are the boss of me.
If I've done it right, they all have a list, and they're like, I need you here. I need you to answer this question. I need you to start this on this time that that is the goal is that somebody else is the boss of me. And the problem though, is that I'm forever saying carrot, you know what? Nudge me, yell me whatever you need. Just let me just if you don't see it and I haven't gotten it done, just say, where is that you can say it in your sternest math teacher voice. I
but here's the thing, who really likes to be the Nag? Nobody. Nobody does. Yeah, nobody does. But it's but it's interesting. Like, back to our conversation about empowering women. So you, you didn't see the community that you needed, so you created it. You brought in those 17 women to seed the whole thing, even in this leadership position with the people that are reporting to us, what I'm hearing is that you're you're giving people permission to do what's necessary to get the work done. And I think as women are progressing and trying to step up into the next iterations of themselves and in their careers, we were so conditioned to be nice and polite and to wait for an opening and wait for an invitation and just wait. And by you saying you know what you can give me your stern math teacher voice, you're opening up the opportunity for that person to move into their next version of themselves as well and just be free and expressing themselves and for asking for what they need, it's it's a great opportunity that you're giving by telling people to boss you around. I just, I think that's true for one thing, I will say that, since I didn't work in a big company since maybe my second year out of college, I really, really had to kind of invent these, the sort of management, the company culture as it were, and I this particular woman who works with me now, she was so different, as I was saying, I tend to, you know, obsess about the sentence that's going to be going out. I mean, I think it's important. The subject line is important. It has to be, you know, I mean, it had to be kind of clever. It couldn't be too mawkish. It couldn't be too anyway. And she is, get it done. Get it done. Get it done. Get it done. And she's super efficient. Sometimes there'll be oversights and mistakes when she's in such a rush. And sometimes she reminds me that it doesn't have to be perfect. You know, that there's a degree to which I don't have to obsess. So it's an interesting balance, and always makes me aware. When do I really feel like I need to?
You know, spend two and a half hours looking for the right image to send this email out. Conversely, though I have had to say to have had to
figure out on my own. Like, what do I say when she makes a big, you know, mistake? Like, how do we handle it when those moments happen? What do you do to sort it out? I say, look, I miss Simpsons because we had one of these conversations last week. You are so efficient at what you do. I know you're so quick and I and she knows how much I value that, that she can just get this done. And
what do you need from me so that we don't skip, you know, so that we don't make errors that end up, you know, losing us money.
Do you tell me when you need me to step in and do testing. You know, don't, don't, don't worry that you're interrupting me in any way if you feel like you need me to double check something, because I want to be there and do that. So that's one, one way.
And what I found is that that particular conversation was effective because.
Really felt, she felt safe discussing her weaknesses. So that was really a big deal. No, I was happy. First I would in the early days, I thought, I'm not critical enough. I'm not tough enough on people who are, you know, trying to get it all done and not
copy editing, or whatever it is, and and now I've found that there's another way to, you know, I don't, I don't have to, like, certainly not yell, that's not really in my
style, in my toolbox yet, or maybe it never will be. But I have gotten to a place where they feel safe about talking about their weaknesses. Certainly I feel safe talking about mine like I can say, Look, this is something I'm really bad at. I love you to check me, you know. So you're using vulnerability to help, to help bridge those gaps in style and an expectation. You're just you're being real and being yourself, and you're making space for them to be real and be themselves. Afraid to say things like, you know what really matters to me? You know, or you know what? I know. You've been waiting on this for a long time, but it really matters to me that this has the right subject line, because we're only going to have one shot at getting 3000 people interested in something that's, you know, kind of seems it's not necessarily an easy, direct, obvious thing, right, you know.
So, I mean, we've done these weird, weird things. It's not just, you know, divorce finance and divorce law. We did things like an essay writing weekend workshop, where people were invited to write basically a modern love essay about their breakup or their, you know, experiences right after. And those ended up being so impactful and so rich, and every time I start to sort of email about it. It's not the most direct thing. Well, yeah, in when people are in a crisis there, what do I do about my kids, my money, my house, my, you know, all the all the when I think about it in terms of business, I think about it in the way people categorize it, which I hate, this languaging, but hard skills and soft skills.
So in business, hard skills are all of those things that seem to directly impact revenue, that that move the needle right, and it just drives me crazy, because your whole business is made up of people, so there's nobody to do the hard skill or hard skill stuff if you don't have soft skills and people you're right dawn, and that's one of the reasons I think you're so good at what you do. Over the years, I've gotten to sort of know, you know, certain kind of male business coach. There's a certain tendency that some, you know, male business gurus have, of making it all into a formula, you know, like it's all formula, and God bless them, I mean, but it's not because it's about people, because people, because people so interesting to me,
so interesting, and that it. And as you know, sometimes most of their followers are men and and, and who wouldn't like to think that if they didn't feel that comfortable with people, that it could be all figured out mathematically? I'm 100%
dawn for that happening. I would love for it to be a formula, but, you know, we're just that's not how it goes. So I just need to say this, I feel like one of your one of your gifts, and this is something I I really got so much from.
I always wanted to lean deeper in, because you had such emotional intelligence about people, and even when you knew the hard skill piece of it, and you had to kind of, you had to impart that knowledge to me. You, you,
you made it feel very human. I don't know if I'm expressing it well, but I do think that you bring, maybe it's right brain, left brain, and together really well in this arena. So that, especially for women, I think,
I mean, I hate to just lean on these gender stereotypes, because they're, they don't all they aren't, you know, they're so weekly and they're so unreliable, but I do think that you have the
you bring emotional intelligence to the fore, and that's a real gift, along with all these, like, really concrete business strategy things, and that is, to me, that's like the best, that's just so special. And, you know, I haven't had 60 coaches, but I've met many, and also now, you know, just in passing, and I feel like you really have that that's your.
That's your special sauce. Thank you, Elise. I appreciate that. You
dawn.
Okay, so let's talk about your special sauce.
What? How would you describe your leadership style like if you if you were going into a corporate setting and you were sharing with a group of people that you're about to lead. This is how I like to do it. How would you describe your style? One of the things I guess I that motivates me in just in the world, is
seeing somebody meeting somebody, and sort of seeing what they what their strengths are, and just
helping them feel that and helping that blossom. So it sounds like you're a mentorship, centered leader or a collaborative leader. Well, I mean, I suppose collaborative, yeah, I remember one of the things that happened years ago was that I did a panel and I invited some, you know, pretty fancy, fancy lawyers, and one of them was one of the lawyers that I had the most respect for. These were leaders in mediation. They were spreading the word about collaborative law, and and,
and I introduced the panel, and the first woman to speak was this woman, Catherine Miller, who I just really looked up to. And she said something. She said, Elise figures out what we all do best, and she brings it out of us
like can't believe it was one of the greatest compliments I ever received, and it was so out of the blue. And I, I, I I had never,
I'd never, like, I know, I get joy from saying, oh my gosh, that thing that she said is so smart, we've got to do a panel so that she can really kind of develop that. So I think that, yes, and with people who I work with, you know, this sweet spot, for instance, you know, with Christian, he had a real gift for a certain kind of
photo searching ability, whatever. And I would just put him to get him to town on that, and then find the music that would go with it. And it was sort of his. He just he owned that, you know, and he brought a lot to the company when he was doing that. And same but, you know, same virtue. I have people who have come in and they're artists, and they think, I don't know, I'm just an art, you know, whatever, and they've made the greatest animations that, you know. For instance, I remember one, it was, get your sexy back. And it was this, she'd never done animations before, but I said, Have you ever thought about like, making a just a little, you know, animation dip, and she had this silhouette of Josephine Baker swinging her butt, and it was, and it said, Get your sexy back. And it was just like, so many people responded to it, and she had never, now she does animations all the time. It's just like opened up a whole new so what a beautiful quality you have to be able to suss that out in people and reflect it back to them so that they can go deeper into it. That's cool. And it has brought so much richness and so much kind of, you know, dynamism to and then I feel very lucky that I can be that sort of Flexi, you know, yeah, and go one way or the other. I don't have to,
you know, pitch it to
my supervisor,
yeah, although sometimes I probably should have supervisor, which, speaking of, if you if you had a do over. So here you are, 10 years in. If you could go back and start, start this whole thing over and do anything differently, what would would you and what would you do
differently?
Great question that I don't know. I've really, really, really thought hard on. One of them is possibly bring in a partner who has completely other kinds of skills than I had so complimentary partner. I used to think, there have been times when I thought, oh, I need a partner. I need a partner. But then other times when I thought, yeah, but then I'd have to check everything at them. And, you know, give over so much and so,
I don't know, that's a great question. I haven't really,
you I think that, you know, took me so long, I guess there's anything it took me so long to pick up the phone to even call you. In other words, the biggest, the biggest thing I guess I regret, is not starting earlier. You know, just, just.
Thinking I need to have something to say. I need to have need to have the authority. And that's one of the things I think that so many of us
worry about. And I don't think of myself as super shy and meek, but I do think that when, when we find ourselves thinking, I need to fit in more. I want to, like rewrite that, and have people think, first, what is it that I'm experiencing differently from everyone else? And let's get it deeper into that. And maybe that's where, maybe that's where the juice is. Maybe that's what I have, you know, and in the in the sort of divorce experience, I have seen these really like just gives me shivers when I think of some of these moments where, let's say it was that writing workshop and and we had to answer what makes you most ashamed about this whole experience. And then it turned out that every woman had to write an essay about that.
And what it ended up doing was it brought out. It was like the weakest part became the biggest strength. It took the courage for them to kind of reach in and look at the thing that they were most ashamed of. And then it became this, just cause for celebration, in a way, and it made everybody else in the room feel
liberated from that same shame. It was like they thought that. So again, it was one of those moments, and I experienced them all the time, like isolation, especially with something like divorce, just kind of compounds shame where, you know, I really don't think that divorce is failure. I feel like I think it's, you know, chapters of our lives, lives are longer all that, and that the idea of failure is just kind of
this. It is helpful for society to discourage divorce, and I guess the label failure seems to sort of keep everybody aid in that discouraging approach.
But
I do feel like opening it up, opening the doors, opening the windows on those things
is so an empowering I mean that word gets overused, but that is exactly what happens. They become like liberated, and, you know, from from, from the shame and and they've and they've, they've brought light into other people's lives by opening up their own closet that they didn't want to open, you know, it's just so moving and and, and it just opens my heart, you know, all the time. And I again, I feel so lucky that I get to do this, you know. I think,
I think back on the times when i
i I was, you know, trying to get back into journalism. And I think about the fact that, you know, maybe I, you know, I was writing for women's magazines, and sometimes they'd be great pieces. Sometimes they'd just be like, toe cleavage, you know. Or
what's the new Did you really write a piece on Joe,
or, I don't know the, you know, the workout craze where
fire new, new greatest workout class, the firemen class, whatever it is, it just felt like I felt like I feel like, Oh my god. I'm so happy that I get to sort of live and converse in things that really matter, that nobody has to pretend is more important than it is we don't have to, like,
yeah, so, and these are people's lives. And so I just feel like, oh god. I feel so lucky, you know,
endlessly lucky, even if I mean, it did take a reorienting of my brain, you know, and, and, and to this day, I think, I think there are journalists out there, you know, who used to be sort of colleagues. And, oh, just recently, I heard from somebody from the Columbia J school. They were like they knew and what I had been doing, who would have thought, you know, they'd been following on time. And that was the big surprise, because I did think I tend to think of it as, you know, these hard driving New York Times writers who covering the wars and so forth, and who, you know, don't have much. This seems like soft, super soft. Soft skills. Soft skills. Yeah. And yet, you know, it's interesting. I guess I'm really I'm really
delighted that I took that I was sort of pushed into this path
be happier. I could not be happier either. I'm so thankful that you have, that you've that.
Dedicated your time and your energy and your enthusiasm and your smarts, your brilliance, really, at least to this particular issue and community. It's, it's so important to be able to find spaces where we can feel supported. And I love that you have created that space for women.
Oh, thank you dawn. I mean, it's, it's great. I just feel like, too I get to see women go from a place that's full of struggle, where they think I'm the only one that's going through this, to a place where they get to bring good like bring their best juice, back to the world, and do you know, really interesting things, and also help their kids. Show, you know, show resilience. What is resilience? Really is hard fucking work, but it's so worth it. It's so worth it. So it's been the greatest
gift, really, no, and I have to say, I would never have, I never would have done it without you. It's really true. It's really true. I mean, I was thinking. I was trying to remember certain things that happened that made it seem
like it had to go. I couldn't turn back. And I think we were in conversations, and you would always bring me back to where we had left off. I couldn't my ADD.
You know, personality tends to, you know, we, we can avoid whatever seems like too much of a lift or too much of a climb. We could just jump to the next thing, jump to the next thing. And in between one of our two talks, I remember being at a dinner. It was a reunion dinner of high school women, and we were had to go around and talk about what we'd been doing, you know, yeah, and,
and I had say, I can't remember, I'm trying to get back into work, and I've gone through divorce and, or maybe some women went, a woman I knew went Before me, and she said, Well, it looks like
I'm going through a divorce. And I turned to her and I said, Oh, really. Because actually I'm starting to, I think I'm starting a business around women going through divorce. And I couldn't believe that I said that, and I realized, oh shit, I said that
maybe I now have to do it. It was weird. It was that thing that somehow I, you know, the fact that I even was able to utter it was meant that I had gone I was eons from the place where you and I first spoke, Yep, yeah,
eons where I just, you know, I was, you're committed at home. Mom, I was a stay at home mom for a long time who had been a journalist, but really, you know, those of us who have left the workforce know how quickly confidence drains away when you're not in the thick of it, quickly, quickly, quickly. And even though we are at the, you know, our edge of our capacity, usually when we're being moms in the thick of it, we still don't sort of equate that with true effectiveness in the world. And so, you know, that was another thing I felt very grateful for that, that when I finally did have the guts to pick up the phone and call you, you
were so present with me, and you were so right there, and I didn't the sense of humiliation or embarrassment of having been home with kids, which I didn't really feel in my heart, but I felt
among the working world. You know? Well, it's a duality, because I think all of us have experienced that a little bit during the pandemic. Time is you're in you're in your bubble, and you feel a sense of accomplishment and skill and facility and agency. And you know you're empowered inside your bubble. But then when you turn and look outward and start telling yourself stories about how it is for everybody else and how they're moving faster or accomplishing more or making a bigger difference, or whatever, all of a sudden we minimize all of that accomplishment, confidence, etc, that we had inside the four walls of our homes. Yeah, right, right. And maybe this whole pandemic will, you know, really reiterate that for some of us, that time when we got through the bubble and we helped kids, our kids get through the bubble without having nervous breakdowns. Is the greatest heroism that there is, and that that somehow really can be
without having to sort of make posters about it, just acknowledged and recognized and felt that that is my that is my hope and and I hope that that that also is part of the the confidence that then people can draw on and take it, take it on the road with them, outside their houses now too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there are lots of women out there that are in this place, potentially going through divorce or or just contemplating what's next. Their next chapter, they're.
Next steps. What advice would you give them?
Trust your gut, honor your difference. What makes you different, even if it's in my case, for example, I was like, I'm too I'm too shy to ask my fancy, smart attorney all the questions on my list, because I don't want her to think I'm done, even though I'm a journalist, whatever that was. You know, I was ashamed of that, but that ended up being I'm too shy. There's got to be a lot of women out there who are even more tongue tied. Don't know what to ask. So honor your diff. Honor your differences and where you feel you may not be strong like that's something to really
give space to and
and look into, you know, with curiosity.
Yeah, that's one of the biggest things. And also
find a coach, or I didn't really realize, I think that you were talking to the women of untied and reminding us that you have a coach. I just think that there is endless value. It's just like the, you know, the therapists need, therapists that that that's part of their that's part of what they need to be doing, that is just, that's just such a help, even if it's a small group of you who can really be
responsible to each other, bear witness to what the others going up, you know, going through and giving proper space to each other. I feel that is so essential, so essential because I had friends who, who who felt like I had friends who were very accomplished in their fields, and they would say, I'd say, I'm gonna try to get back into work. And they're like, God, that must be hard.
Yeah, it's
hard. Any resources, any thoughts, yeah, she called Dawn
easy for you to say, you know, you've done 13 Broadway plays, you know, just
so you know, part of it is just honor yourself. You're just your your your difference and where you feel like you're the weakest or or not, as or not.
Haven't kept up. There's other things that have been going on that maybe you've grown in other ways, like you don't count yourself out for the for the for the ways you feel like you don't stack up or you don't look like everyone else, right? Don't rush to join the crowd in any way. You know, I feel like that's part of what,
yeah, I mean, divorce is like you're not one of the married couples anymore, and rather than be ashamed of it, find out you know, like, look into that with curiosity and recognize that actually
maybe you know like it's it's probably the best thing that could have ever happened. Like now you actually have your your life to live, and the agency to live it the way you know you can, and then way you know you want to. So love it,
that that, that I think would be the, those are the two big things, nice. And then, where can people find out more about untied? Where do they find you? So we are, our URL is untied.net.
We still don't have untied.com
we are easy to find on the web. We
also have a Facebook page. We are we are
about to launch, we sort of relaunch our website, in which case we'll have our Instagram handle right untied.
Yeah, are untied into it's untied.
And yeah, we're in. We're in, by the way. We're also now starting up, launching a directory of all of our members, so that if you live in Dallas, you'll be connected with other women going through the same thing in Dallas, Chicago, LA, and then next year, we're going to do events in different cities, so we'll get that live base and allow people to meet each other. Just very exciting to me too. I love it. Looking forward to that. Well, thank you for being here with me on the podcast, on the My good women podcast today, Elise, I appreciate you spending your time with me. Thank you for having me. It's so great to see you again, and I am so grateful for what you do on the planet. I can't tell you, thanks, Elise,
thank you for joining us this week to view the complete show notes and all the links mentioned in today's episode. Visit mygoodwoman.com
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Podcasts. Reviews are one of the major ways that Apple ranks their podcasts. So even though it only takes a few seconds, it really does make a difference. This episode was produced by me, Brian Marcus and Kathleen O'Shaughnessy. Thank you again for joining me. Dawn Andrews in this episode of my good woman, Dawn,