She's That Founder: Business Strategy, Time Management and AI Magic for Impactful Female Leaders

003 | Leading as a Trailblazer and an Introvert: Business Strategy For Female Leaders - with Nicole J. Butler

• Dawn Andrews • Episode 3

Share episode

Send us a text

How can you stay true to yourself, even if the whole wide world is telling you to be different? 

From (not) networking in Hollywood as an introverted actress to turning an ADHD diagnosis into a wonderful opportunity to acquire new skills and techniques, Nicole J Butler does things her own way.

In the past 20 years, Nicole has appeared in over 100 commercials, television shows, and independent projects, including her self-produced web series, “Sister President”. 

But that level of success didn't come easily. Nicole moved to Hollywood with just $200. She got stuck with jobs that she hated, made it through terrible auditions, quit acting, and went broke. Then, after years of doing it wrong, she decided to stop following “the rules”… and started getting it right.

In this episode, Nicole and I talk about

  • Being a leader and an introvert
  • Iowa, intersectional invisibility and being a Black woman in Hollywood
  • What working through burnout feels like
  • A different perspective on being diagnosed with ADHD as an adult


This episode at a glance:

[10:34]  How Nicole turned political disenchantment into a compelling web series. 

[19:11] Getting through those "make or break" moments.  

[23:16] How to know if someone is a good match to work with: shared work ethics, values, and people who are a pleasure to be around. 

[27:58] Being a Black woman in Hollywood - from back when all the roles were bailiffs and policewomen... to now.  

[29:48] The conundrum of intersectional invisibility: being incredibly unique and visible - but at the same time finding it so much harder to get people to listen to you.

[36:18] Being an introvert in a traditionally extroverted field

[40:42] Why leadership is not about value or importance; it's about adding your unique talents to the big puzzle. 

[42:42] How even if leading is not your default setting, sometimes it’s necessary, a means to an end

[50:59] Working through burnout - mental and physical exhaustion

Resources and Links mentioned in this episode

More about the “My Good Woman” podcast

My Good Woman is a podcast for new and future female leaders hosted by me, Dawn Andrews! 

I’m a happily married hockey mom, proud female leader, and founder and CEO of Free Range Thinking, where we turn founders into confident CEOs with strategic consulting and leadership training.

Grab a seat at the table with me each week for can

Want to increase revenue and impact? Listen to “She's That Founder” for insights on business strategy and female leadership to scale your business. Each episode offers advice on effective communication, team building, and management. Learn to master routines and systems to boost productivity and prevent burnout. Our delegation tips and business consulting will advance your executive leadership skills and presence.

Dawn Andrews:

Hello friends, welcome to my good woman, the podcast for new and future female leaders. I'm your host Dawn Andrews up happily married hockey mom and the founder and CEO of free range thinking business strategy consulting, grab a seat at the table with me each week for candid conversations with culture shifting glass ceiling busting, trailblazing women, leading impactful enterprises. We discuss what makes them tick how to get it all done and actionable strategies to help you lead with confidence and grow the visibility, reach and revenue of your business. We're classy ladies but we don't believe the swear words listener discretion is advised. My good woman Nicole J. Butler is a Chicago raised Hawkeye educated actress and content creator. She moved to Hollywood with 200 bucks in her pocket. She got stuck on a carousel of inflexible day jobs that she hated. spent money on bad headshots gave terrible auditions, quit acting, burned out when broke, had to move to that neighborhood. You know the one and after years of doing it wrong, she started getting it right. In the past 20 years, Nicole has worked consistently in front of and behind the camera on stage and at the voiceover mic, appearing in over 100 commercials, television shows and independent projects combined, including her self produced web series sister president, Nicola is best known as she should Cheryl from state farms viral she shed commercial, and we got together to discuss being an introverted leader turning political disenchantment into a compelling web series. What happens when Kim Jeong Hoon goes missing how it feels to receive an add diagnosis as an adult. Iowa intersectional invisibility and being a black woman in Hollywood, why success is better when you bring others with you. Working through burnout and so much more. And she knows how to yell at people in Spanish and Italian. She is my superhero and I am so excited to welcome Nicole J. Butler. Let's listen in. Nicole J Butler, welcome to the mic. Good Woman Podcast. I'm glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me. I'm so glad you're here. You are a creative leader. You are a playwright, you are one foxy tall drink of water. We're both we're both tall girls is nice. It's nice to see eye to eye with somebody. I appreciate that. And I'm just really I'm really glad to have you here. So thank you for giving me the time today. Well, so I was thinking about how we came together. And I first met you through the lovely and talented Miss Michelle Carter. And particularly connected to your project sister president and I would you just share with with my listeners with my leading female audience a little bit more about yourself and your your projects and where you're coming from.

Nicole J. Butler:

Okay, I am. I'm originally from Chicago, born and raised. And I will never not be a Chicago girl. I have to add that. I went to college in Iowa. So going from the Southside of Chicago to Iowa was culture shock. B ut when I managed I survived.

Dawn Andrews:

What made you choose Iowa? I gotta get into that for a second.

Nicole J. Butler:

Yeah, that's that's a good question. I had a love for foreign languages. And in high school, I was studying Spanish and Italian. And I wanted to go to a university that that offered Italian and there weren't many at that time. So I looked at Notre Dame, I really wanted to come some work to California, but I was 16 When I graduated from high school, and my mother said no, you are not going that far. You need to be somewhere where I can drive to you if something happens. And so I started looking I'm like, Okay, well, Notre Dame in Indiana, and then there's Iowa. And they both offered Italian. And I didn't finish the application for Notre Dame because it was too long. I was like I'm at right now. I mean, you know, the mind of a 16 year old it's like, why don't we have 10 pages of essay questions to get into college? I don't think so. I was the only school I ended up applying to, and thank God they accepted me. So that's All right, good up there.

Dawn Andrews:

Well okay, so So it's still so many questions like where so where did your love of language take you at in Iowa? Did you did you continue with Spanish and Italian like where? Are you fluent now? Like I shouldn't I feel like I should know these things. I should have done my proper homework.

Nicole J. Butler:

I was I was fluent when I left college. Now, I'm rusty because I don't use it as much like I used to dream in Spanish. Because I spoke it so often. Now, when I travel and I'm somewhere for a while immersed in it, it comes right back even with Italian I got a degree in Spanish and theater arts.

Dawn Andrews:

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Well, that gives me that gives me hope my kids are both bilingual by literate in Spanish. I speak I promise you like kindergarten level, because that's about the time in their studies and growth that I was like, I can't understand you anymore. So it gives me such hope that there's like they're even if they get rusty that it'll come back. That's so great. It'll come

Nicole J. Butler:

back. It will come back. Yeah, yeah. Battalion. I didn't study that for as long I studied it for maybe two years in college, and then letting go. But when I went to Italy, went to Italy with a friend years ago, and it was at a toll booth and I apparently I had done the wrong thing. Whatever I was supposed to do. I did it wrong. And the guy in the toll booth was yelling something at me in Italian. I yelled at him right back. I was like, Oh my God, I didn't even know that was still in. And he let me go.

Dawn Andrews:

These are important things. You know, as long as you can yell at people in another language

Nicole J. Butler:

It's a necessary skill.

Dawn Andrews:

Bringing people together bringing people together. That's amazing. Well, okay, so tell me tell me a little bit about the transition from being a polyglot multilingual person into the what's the road between there and SR, President?

Nicole J. Butler:

Okay, there's a lot of road. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna condense it. I wanted to be a translator interpreter. In college, I thought that was what I wanted to do. And the more I studied, the more the closer I got to graduation, the more I realized that I don't think I want to do that for a living like, that just sounds really boring. So I started taking other classes to try and figure out what do I want to do? Economics hated it. Business classes, hated them. I took an acting class on a whim. And I was like, I like this. Let me take another one. And then my professors started encouraging me to go further. So that's how I got into acting. And then when I went, Yeah, and I stayed in school, another year and a half, so that I could double major in Spanish and theater. So yeah, then I left. And I visited New York, and I realized I can't live here. It's a great place. I love visiting. But there's, I can't live here I need some open spaces. I need some flowers and trees and, and I had some friends who had moved to LA from the theater department, and a former roommate of mine included, and I moved, she said, you can stay with me if you move out here. And I moved out, I stayed with her for about a month found a job and still here 2023 plus years later.

Dawn Andrews:

That's amazing. Nicole, one of the reasons that I wanted to wanted to have a conversation with you today is because I find you I find you to be a leader, I find you to be a trailblazer. And what I loved in your story that you've shared so far is you've wanted to be able to interpret, interpret people's language and or meaning and you just found another avenue to do that. I think that's incredible.

Unknown:

I never put that together like that before. Wow. I never thought of it in that way. Yeah. Thank you. I never, I never intended to be a leader. I never set out to be an entrepreneur. I never set out to be a leader. But I am. I'm the eldest of all of my siblings. And so I so one of one of eight. Is that right? Yeah, whenever I have my parents divorced when when I was really young. So my mom has seven daughters. And then my dad has I have a brother and a stepsister on my dad's side that I didn't goodness sake. Yeah. And that was number one. Yeah, so it's kind of hard not to lead when you're the first one out the gate like that. Right? Right.

Nicole J. Butler:

But I, I tend to I've told you already that I'm an introvert, I tend to keep to myself tend to be in my head working things out before I reach out. If I reach out, it's because I couldn't figure it out on my own or something is too big and I know okay, I need to pull people in and And, and SR president was my biggest undertaking to date like it was. It was so big that I, I knew I couldn't do it on my own. And even with help, like I thought I was gonna go crazy. I really did lose it. Yeah.

Dawn Andrews:

So describe, describe to describe to folks what SR president is because I, I'm a fan. I'm a super fan, but not everybody knows what it is, where it came from and what it's turned out to be.

Nicole J. Butler:

Okay. SR president is a web series that that I wrote. I started writing it in 2017, because I was disenchanted with the way that the political systems everything was going in this country. And I just kept hearing these these voices in my head, not like, you know, voices as far as artistically. Yes, hearing the voices. So I'm like, Well, let me write this down, write down what I'm hearing and see where it goes. At that point, I didn't know if it was going to be just a short story or a play anything. And I kept writing and I'm like, Okay, let me just massage it a little bit. And, and it seemed like it wanted to be a screenplay, a screenplay. And it's a story about two sisters who attend a town, a virtual town hall meeting. And the President is much like the one who was elected in 2016. I'll just say that. Yeah. And one of one of the sisters is very outgoing, and the other one is much more reserved. And the outgoing sister gets them both into a situation where they appear to be heckling, the new president. And he says, Hey, okay, you think he can do a better job than I can? Why don't I let you both be president for the for the next six months. And if your approval rating isn't 15 points higher than mine, you go to prison for the remainder of my term. Well, the outgoing sister who talks too much and talks before before she thinks, said, Hey, that sounds like a good idea. And the other sister ends up being the president, the outgoing sister ends up being the Vice President and hilarity ensues. So, yeah, that's what it was.

Dawn Andrews:

I thought it was, first of all funny, you guys, their performances were great. And it really, it was moving, and a little bit nauseating thinking about what we were living through at the time that you wrote it, and at the time that it played out in that you launched it, it was when it when you launched it and started sharing it with the world, it was in the lead up to the election. And it was the most recent election. And it was, it was hard to reflect back on all that had happened at that particular point, I really appreciate that you had been a watchful eye and listening ear and capturing some of it and pulling it through your perspective so that other people could react to it and react to it in a palatable, palatable and humorous way. I really appreciated it.

Nicole J. Butler:

Oh, thank you. Thank you. It was it was what I was feeling and what some of the conversations that I was having with people around me, like what is this that we're living through? Like what, you know, this is, this is traumatic, and this was before the pandemic. So it was like it there was trauma and then the pandemic, I piled on top, and it was released during the pandemic. Yeah, while editing that project. Do you remember when Kim Jong Hoon went missing for a while nobody knew where he was? And they were like, We think Yeah, but Okay, so we were editing at that time, and editing was taking a while was taking longer than we intended. And when I heard that news, I just had a full on meltdown. And it was like, called the director called the editor. What is going on? If this man because I had a joke in one of the episodes about Kim Jong moon, it was like totally Yeah, a whole bit about it. And I'm like, I can't use it would be important to us that you know, and all this work will be for nothing if we don't get this edited and released before this man dies while he's still alive, you know? Yes.

Dawn Andrews:

Like yeah, it all played out. Okay, I guess I guess like I played out well for your project, but love that book, another time to talk to get into the rest of it.

Nicole J. Butler:

Yeah, doing things in real time. Like with current events. It's, you got to be aware because things shift so quickly, but we were fortunate. We were really fortunate.

Dawn Andrews:

Well, so back to this idea of you of you being a leader and a creative leader, did you set out? You know, you're picking up the conversations, you're hearing the voices, you start to write this? Did you set out to make a web series? Was that? Was that an intention of yours? Even even before hearing the voices? In a sense, like was that a project that was on your radar? Being able to put together a web series or creatively? That's how it pulled through to fruition?

Nicole J. Butler:

Yeah, creatively, that's just that's what it was. I wrote to me, yes. And I showed it to a friend of mine. And I said, Hey, look at this, and he's read a lot. I've known him since college, he's read a lot of things that I've written. So what look at this, what do you think? And he's like, I think there's something there. And so if I shoot this, and it was just the pilot episode, would you want to direct it? He's like, absolutely. So that's what we did. We shot just the pilot, and I didn't know, you know, I didn't know what it was going to do, or we're going to be and then I kept writing and kept writing, I ended up with 10 episodes. And, and then I whittled them down to six, like type episodes. And then I had a reading. And I said, What do you guys think? The cast that for the reading? What do you all think? And they loved it. They laughed in the right places the right place. Okay. This could be something and I didn't want it to be yet another thing that I have written that lived in a binder, because yeah, you know, yeah, I, you know, we creatives, we have lots of ideas, and a lot of them never see the light of day because they all take so much work.

Dawn Andrews:

They do they do it really it takes something special to bring something all the way into reality. And I'm sure sure people listening, there are enough podcasts and conversations these days for people to understand that to see a film even on Netflix. And and I don't mean to diminish Netflix, but just a streaming film, as opposed to one that's pushed out to a movie theater. Most of those projects have been around for they might have been in production for two years. And they may have been around for a hell of a lot longer than that sitting on somebody's shelf before they actually get polished, picked up, put into some sort of production pipeline and then pulled forward. So yeah, there's a lot of creativity that's sitting in binders on people's shelves everywhere. Yeah. I appreciate that. You had the gumption? And again, the skill set to pull it forward. And what did it take? What was it like leading that project?

Nicole J. Butler:

It was I was excited. I was afraid of,

Dawn Andrews:

especially in the beginning, Nicole, like finding finding supporters finding funding. What were the challenges that you faced in those early days? Well,

Nicole J. Butler:

I asked once, I asked a few people, and they liked it. And I watched their reactions to it. I felt like okay, I have something good. I just, there's so much that I don't know about producing that. I just need to find people in my village who do. And I wanted to pay everybody because, you know, I mean, I can say thank you, which is wonderful, but you can't pay rent with Thank you, you know, and I knew this will take some time. And yeah. So I'm like, Okay, well, how do I get money to do this? And I had tried to crowdfund on a friend's project years prior, and it did not go well. I don't like again, I don't like asking for things. And I certainly don't like asking for money. And I don't definitely don't like asking for money on the internet. I just there. Yes. And I really had to step out of my comfort zone. Because if I had had the money, I probably would have financed it myself, like, Okay, I don't have to ask anybody now I'm just gonna put my money into it. But I'm like, I don't, I can't, I can't do this. So I had to step out of my comfort zone and set up a seed and spark account, which is about funding for TV and film, and just start asking for money and explain, this is what I'm doing. You know, these are the people who are involved. Please give. I did that every day, like for 31 days. And every day I wanted to quit every day. I was like, these people I would have these conversations with my mom. I'm like, they heard they've heard me like 15 times now they know what it is. If they're not giving they're not interested. She's like, keep going, keep just keep going. Okay, I

Dawn Andrews:

love you, mom.

Nicole J. Butler:

Yes, yes. And part of that was because she wanted to be in it. She was actually in it. That was my real mom. That was the mom who played mom was that Actually my real mom. But But yeah, we people gave a lot of it came in in the last days, I think they just wanted to wait and see. Is anybody else giving? You know? Is this really

Dawn Andrews:

fascinating? Yeah. I love that you so so what did you specifically shift for yourself? So I'm imagining my my listeners are leaders, they are business owners, they're small business owners, some people are creatives that are putting together their own projects, some people are launching new things, and they're solopreneurs. They're just getting started. So what, what shifted for you, when you started asking for money, like you, you obviously got to that point that you mentioned before where you couldn't do it on your own. So that was one piece of it. But what what shifted for you that finally had you stand up and for 31 days straight tell people the same story over and over waiting for that finish line moment when everybody started sending their money. What shifted for you.

Nicole J. Butler:

I believed in the story, like I, I believed in the story, I believed in the potential collaboration of the cast and crew that I had assembled. And I wanted to do it as much for them. As for myself, and something clicked that growth isn't comfortable, you know, like, so this is how you grow. And you if you don't stretch, you got to just this has got to be another project that's in the binder with the others. So I knew I that was it was like a make or break moment where I knew I had to I had a choice to make. And I decided to make the step forward, take a step forward.

Dawn Andrews:

There's a one of my mentors talks about throwing your hat over the fence. And this is a throw your hat over the fence moment it sounds like so a few things that I hear that I think are so helpful, which is you, you created something that was important and bigger than yourself. Like that meant more to you than how your level of comfort or you know, staying safe. And you also invited other people and had other people seeing your vision with you. And you wanted to succeed because of them as well. So there were two different layers that you put together, that moved your your discomfort or ego or whatever it might have been to the side. And then the last part of it is that throwing your hat over the wall moment, like at that point, you're like, Well, I kind of want my hat back. So as uncomfortable as it might be, you take a run at it, you grab you, you know, hopefully don't get too many splinters or get stuck on the top and can't get over the side. But you go for it. And that's what I hear in your story. And that's what that's what to me makes people great, great leaders is that you, you throw your hat over and you go for it and you bring other people with you. I love that that's the story of this project for you.

Nicole J. Butler:

What is the point? What is the point of any success? If you're not bringing other people with you? You know, I don't know. For me, I don't I don't know what the point would be. Right?

Dawn Andrews:

Well, how so? How do you choose? How do you find good people to play along with? What's your decision making criteria? How do you know that? So when you're thinking about putting that crew together, there's obviously a skill set you're looking for for each of the different roles. But how do you know that somebody is like a good match for a project that you're working on?

Nicole J. Butler:

Well, the, in some instances, on that particular project and and going forward, I have people in mind, like, okay, you know, this this friend, there were a couple there was one character and one one specific character that I wrote for a friend like I knew this is her role, when we do this. People who are in my life that I like to interact with, I know they handle business, well, they're skilled, they're gonna show up on time, you know, their, their work ethic is is like mine, you know, they're not gonna I'm not gonna have to worry, okay, it's their call time was 9am and it's 930. And where are they? I don't want to have to worry about the kind of thing so so people have a really strong work ethic and skills and whose word I can trust and then I then have fun to be around you know, because yeah, that's a lot of time to be around people you don't like

Dawn Andrews:

for any project but especially for this one that's this complex and big. Well, it just what I'm hearing is that you you part of what made the decision for you is not just could they do the job or not, but do they share a similar sense of values with you, like you value showing up on time being professional and doing good work, you value being a pleasure to be around, you know, you yourself, you want to make a situation fun? You want to enjoy your time together with these people and you wanted other people to feel similarly about that. So you found people with shared values? It sounds like

Nicole J. Butler:

yes, yes. you're excellent at like summing things up in a way that

Dawn Andrews:

this is all that. All that coaching, consulting training, I can't hear any other thing. Much to my children's chagrin. Sometimes I think they're like, you don't need to coach me right now. I was like a kid stop again. Stop. Yeah, it is it's totally in me do well. So when you're thinking about your additional creative projects, even the the plays that you've written, where, where does that come from? For you these ideas? If you look back over him, is there a particular theme or kinds of stories that you're trying to tell? Do you see commonalities between them?

Nicole J. Butler:

I tend to tell stories of people who I feel haven't been heard, whose voices haven't been heard. One of a play that I wrote in in college and actually won an award for was called young black male. And at the time, there, it's like when gangsta rap was on the rise and all of that. And so young black men were to be feared, you know, they're all gangsters and all this kind of stuff. And what I wanted to do was show how did a gangster you know, how did a young black male go from an innocent child to being a thug? Like, how does that happen? Because I mean, I know that's like, one of those buzzwords that if you use it as it can, it can really be racially loaded, like if you call somebody a thug, late racially loaded. All right, but we know that those do exist. So how, yeah, how does someone get from being an innocent baby to being a thug? And I wanted to tell that story, because I don't think a lot of times people look at that. And I just like to humanize individuals and situations in a way that makes you see from a different perspective. Instead of okay, well, that's a thug over there. That's an unwed mom over there. That's, you know, somebody in the White House who shouldn't be like what's going on behind the scenes, when

Dawn Andrews:

you're drawing out some complexities and dimension to things instead of just flattening it out? And, you know, here's the label. Let's move on to the next thing. Have you? How, how has it been for you just in the entertainment industry, specifically, as a black woman? You've been in the industry now for you know, 20 something years? What is that ride been like? And do you feel like, have you had a what you would call? I don't know what a typical experiences for a black woman coming up in Hollywood. But do you feel like in talking to other women that this is what your experiences is pretty typical? Have has it been? more advantageous? less advantageous? Like what's what's the ride like for you?

Nicole J. Butler:

I think of all the times to be a black woman in Hollywood, this is the best possible time. Right now. I have been working as an actress since well, in Hollywood since 19. No, I haven't. That's a lie. Since 2005, that's when I booked my first sag AFTRA job. And I've seen an evolution in the beginning, I get called to play a lot of bailiffs a lot of cops, you know, there just wasn't a whole lot of variety in the roles. And now I'm getting called in for more interesting complex characters. I think, how you how you respond, I've okay, I've never been anything other than a black woman. I mean, I've been a black girl. I don't know. So I don't I don't really know when when I get this question a lot. How is this industry for you as a black woman? I've never navigated it as any anything. Any other

Dawn Andrews:

woman? Yeah.

Nicole J. Butler:

Yeah. So So my experience is just my experience experience. But in talking to other black women that came along at the same time that I did, yeah, it was pretty common. We saw each other at all the auditions, you know, it was just Oh, hi. We're here for the bailiff audition. I can't tell you how many bailiffs frustrating? Yeah, but it's it is getting better. It's getting a lot better. Now. That

Dawn Andrews:

gives me that gives me heart to hear it. One of the things that the reason I asked the question both related to the industry, but it's also something that happens for professional women moving up in their careers or even in starting businesses. There's a term have you. Are you familiar with the term intersectional index? Invisibility? Do you know that term? You're like, Of course I do. Yeah. Well, some of my listeners may not have heard of bit, but it basically means intersectional invisibility basically means that you are a member of two underrepresented groups, whatever those two groups are, and being a woman is an underrepresented group and being black is an underrepresented group. And when those two come together, there's this really unique phenomenon that can happen where you stand out, because you're the only one that's allowed it in a room from a professional perspective. So if you're in a corporate setting, you literally might be the only black woman in the entirety of a large company, 500 people, and you're the only black woman, which gives you a great deal of visibility. But because you are black, and because you are a woman, people aren't actually listening, they aren't seeing you as in a place that you could potentially advance. They aren't offering you opportunities. And it's the weirdest, like really most frustrating conundrum to be in. And I'm glad to hear from your perspective living it out, because I've never been anything but a white woman, white girl than one woman, that that you are like from your personal perspective that you are starting to see some change. And if it can happen in entertainment, then that means we're going to see more stories, more represent more representation, more complex representation, we have at least have the possibility of it. And if we can see it, then we can be it out in the world we but without that it's really difficult to live into it. And I'm glad that you're a creator that's doing that, like that you're not only performing in it, but perpetuating it.

Nicole J. Butler:

Yeah, yeah. Like I've I'm really glad that I went to college in Iowa. I going to college and Iowa prepared me for situations where I was the only one that looked like me, you know?

Dawn Andrews:

And what was what was that like to call? Was it painful, challenging, just what it was, and you just did your thing? Well,

Nicole J. Butler:

when I first got there, I only saw it was it was complete culture shock when I first got got there, because here I am just like three and a half hours away from Chicago. And they're growing corn at the gas station. And like everybody I see is white like every everybody, you know, like, what is going on. And everybody was nice to me. i People, I never was afraid that somebody was going to do something, you know, to harm me or anything like that. But there were lots of microaggressions. And I didn't have a word for it, then like nobody talks about like microaggressions back then. But people asking me all the time, aren't you because well, I am tall. But because I'm tall and black. I'm on the basketball team. I got I can't tell you how many times you know, you're in a rhetoric class. We're all sitting and we're just having a discussion. And we had read a book about gains. There was a mention of a game in the book and somebody had a question about street gangs and turned around looks to me. Like I'm in a gang, I'm sitting in class with you. So those kinds of things were going on. My family built me strong. They made sure I had a strong sense of self before I even before I even got there. So that when people would say things to me, I had a ready built armor, I knew who I was. So them saying things to me couldn't make me feel like I was any anything less. One thing that I did have to do was changed the way that I spoke because people didn't understand it. They understand me. I sounded like you know, a black girl from the Southside of Chicago that say, you know, and I would say things and it would be like, ha ha, you know, like, like, I'm like, I'm not I'm speaking English. Like, why don't you understand me? And then I realize, oh, okay, I get it. It's my dialect. All right. Let me let me change that a little bit. A little bit. Code switching, we call it by now, but I don't think that point then. Yeah. So but But I learned just culturally and not saying that white people are all culturally the same. But I learned how to how to navigate amongst situations where I was the minority or the only one. And that was very necessary for corporate America. I worked in corporate America for a while I got stuck in corporate America for a while. And then the entertainment industry, it's like, okay, you when you say on this breakdown that you want, you're looking for a black woman. Like, what kind of black woman are you looking for? Like, you know, you want black widows been around white people? You want a black woman that's from Southside of Chicago like what do you want the nuances? Yeah,

Dawn Andrews:

yeah, I can't, I can't even met I would love to have been a fly on the wall on that route. When you're asking that question

Nicole J. Butler:

Yeah, yeah, some people answer right away. And, you know, they know what I mean. And some really get nervous because because it can be, you know, like, it's like, what? What words do we use to not offend people? And when I see that happening, and it's, you know, we're having a genuine conversation, I let him off the hook. Now, if somebody's being a jerk, then I just sit there and let him you know, let him slumps for a while. Yeah, what are you? What are you trying to say? I don't understand. Explain that to me, and just sit there and be quiet.

Dawn Andrews:

What a beautiful thing to be able to stand in that sense of yourself. And that resilience to just hold the space for that moment, because you know, that everybody's walking away from it, certainly enlightened. Like, there's some enlightenment, even in the smallest amount that happened as a result of you being fully yourself in that moment, and I'm appreciating you for that.

Nicole J. Butler:

Thank you. Thank you. I truly appreciate my my family, and my community growing up for just like galvanizing around me and supporting me. Yeah,

Dawn Andrews:

thank you, family. Thank you community.

Nicole J. Butler:

Yes.

Dawn Andrews:

So what's it like? You mentioned at the top of our conversation being an introverted and extroverted field and you know, my experience of you we're having this one on one conversation right now you're, you're bubbly, you're a Boolean, you're having fun with it, you know, you're any anybody on first blush is gonna say, of course, she's an extrovert. So what's it like being an introvert in a field that, you know, it's a performative field, like people want to see you perform? What's that?

Nicole J. Butler:

Like? I got into it, because I love the craft of acting. And then I actually quit when I moved here. I hadn't mind you, I had not done any acting here yet. But I was like, I don't understand the industry. I don't know how to get on a lot. I don't know how to get representation. I quit. I'm not gonna do this. And I started working in corporate America until I got miserable. I was like, Yeah, this ain't for me, like, I never really need to act. But I realized that I was never going to be the person that was going to all the networking events, and trying to get on everybody's red carpet. And I that was never, ever going to be me. And the thought of it just made me sick. And I had to find my way. And my way was to stay and go to class, stay in class work extra hard. Get to know, people because I liked them, you know, not because, okay, well, this casting director, cast this, so I need to go and try and befriend them or be commenting on whatever they're doing all the time. Like, that just felt icky to me. I just had to honor the relationships that resonated with me, like when opportunities presented themselves if I met somebody, like I like you, you know, we haven't we've met met in person once I like you, I think you're wonderful. I do, like, just from the first time I met you through a screen, you know, right before the launch of SR president, I was like, cool people. And, and we've only met in person once, but I like your energy. And that those are the types of relationships that I want to cultivate, not because, oh, this person has this in so let me get over that did they just makes me itch I can't, I can't deal with it's,

Dawn Andrews:

it's so helpful. First of all, thank you for being so transparent about that. Because I think when it comes to leadership, I think people sometimes collapse the word with like, being overbearing, or I'm, I'm more valuable than you or I'm, my skills are more important than yours, or it just gets it gets collapsed into, you know, manipulation being icky. And unfortunately, we have, you know, the most public leaders we have right now are a real mixed bag, you know, but what I hear in your story is you finding your way Your unique approach, and being true to that and, and because extroverts are bigger and louder and therefore more visible, everybody collapses that into Well of course you have to go out and network and you have to meet all the people and you have to and if that is not your way, that's you're wasting everybody's time yours and everybody else's because you're just going to be uncomfortable and reserved and you know, not be able to deliver your best self. And I share this with you Nicole like hear him. You know, realizing this dream putting together a podcast, and I would on any given day. Thank you for the applause. On any given day. I would like to be sitting on my couch in my little stripey socks, with a biggest bowl of popcorn with truffle salt on it, reading all the books, reading all the books, it books of all varieties like that's where I get my joy and my energy. And it doesn't show up really pretty on Instagram. And it's tough when you tried to take it on the road into a networking event. But you know, sort of like water, it's it finds its way. And in sharing that story, I feel like you're giving encouragement and possibility to women who may want to lead may feel strongly about something, they want to throw their hat over the fence. But they feel like they're supposed to be something other than what they are. If they're going to be successful at it,

Nicole J. Butler:

you're always going to be a better real you than a fake somebody else. Bring what you have. I think we're all puzzle pieces, like everybody on earth has something special to give to the great, I hope, doesn't sound hokey. But this is really how I look at people in life. And we're all puzzle pieces. And in order to put the puzzle together, you have to have all the pieces. And if somebody doesn't put their piece in, well, then that piece is missing from from this big picture. Somebody needs what you have. And you don't have to be the loudest. You don't have to be the smartest, actually, it's better if you're not the smartest, because you want to surround yourself with people who know more than you because then you're always learning life. For me, what drives me is always having is curiosity. Like just okay, how does this work? Okay, what happens if I do this? All right, what you know, Can I can I do this? How do I do this? And if it's not interesting, if I'm not curious about it, I don't want to do it, then it's just going through the motions. So this there's room for everybody. It

Dawn Andrews:

sounds like that's going back to some of your creative work. It sounds like that's what's at the heart of it. Like the curiosity is pulling you whatever the direction, whatever the ultimate iteration of that creative pursuit that that's the starting point. Like once the curiosity switch gets flipped, get out of the way. Yes, maybe it ends up in a binder, maybe it ends up on YouTube, we don't know, we don't know. Maybe

Nicole J. Butler:

it ends up on the wall, like I'm paying I paint I you know, it's I just feel like all creativity comes from all art, all creativity comes from the same place, you know, it's the, the need to express. And sometimes it comes out in writing, sometimes it's singing, sometimes it's acting, it's painting, it's draw, you know, whatever, it's the same thing. It's a need to express.

Dawn Andrews:

I'm gonna shift gears for a second. So I at the top of the call called you a creative, a playwright, which you are, and a leader. And when I call you a leader, how does that sit with you?

Nicole J. Butler:

It's, it's kind of weird, honestly. Because, because I have a weird relationship with that word I can lead. Uh huh. Is it really what I want to be doing? No, no, leading is not like my default setting, my default setting is going off into a corner and doing what I can do within my little, my little sphere with with the tools that I have. But sometimes it's necessary. And that's it's the same way with, you know, me growing up in where I'm the eldest of all my siblings. I don't want to tell people what to do. But I see what needs to be done very easily I have that, that that is a skill of mine is seeing what needs to be done. And if I can do it, I'll do it and won't bother anybody else else with it. If I can't do it, then, you know, I have to reach out and say, Hey, can you this needs to happen? Can you go do this now doesn't say I do it in in my personal life. And I do it in, in my my business life as well.

Dawn Andrews:

So when you think about SR president, you obviously reached out and pulled a large group of people together. So how, how would you describe leading that group of people? Like how did you approach it? What was your What was your leadership style?

Nicole J. Butler:

My leadership style is, is basically it's something I would I would call leading from behind, you know, hmm. Reaching out to people who, who have the skill set, people I trust, and letting them shine, let them you know, like, I don't want to micromanage anybody. If I got to micromanage you, I might as well do it myself, whatever it is. So just getting pulling in the right people, like you said, people who share my values. So basically, in their role with me at the helm. They're an extension of me, you know, but they're artists in their own rights on right. And it's a it's a collaboration, so it's like, all right, So, here's my vision. Now I trust you to do what you, you know what we talked about here. And if there's an issue, or you see something else, then let me know, I'm here and I'm open, but I'm not gonna follow you around, making sure you're doing what you said you were gonna do. Yeah.

Dawn Andrews:

So, to me, I love the leading from behind phrase, it's it also sounds to me, it's empowering leadership. Like you're you're collecting people and bringing them together, and then you're empowering them and continuing to do things that help clear the path for them to do their best work.

Nicole J. Butler:

Yes, yes, that was an excellent way to put it. Nice.

Dawn Andrews:

Well, you know, this is a leadership podcast, and that is my background.

Nicole J. Butler:

Well, you know, people take pride in what they do when they're allowed to do what they excel at. And if you're on somebody's back, and I've had jobs like this, you know, I think we all have it where somebody is on your back constantly micromanaging and it's like, okay, well, now I don't even care about what I'm doing here. You want me to put an X on this paper? Okay, here's an X you happy with? You know, like, then everybody's got an attitude? Just yeah, yeah, let people do what they shine it

Dawn Andrews:

when you're micromanaging people, they this is, like the nastiest term, but when people are micromanaged, like that, especially over time, basically, they become to me their skin bags, because I know like I said, it's a gross term. But but they they literally are, it's almost a narcissistic extension of the person that's leading, because at that point, the person's creativity will drive for excellence. Motivation, has just been subsumed by, okay, I'll put the X in the right spot. I stamped the thing. I delivered it on time, but there's no there's no spark, there's no joy. There's no creation in it, because the leader has pushed it all out of the person. So they're just, you know, a zombie taking up space getting the thing done. Yeah. But without the extra that goes with an actual person investing themselves in it.

Nicole J. Butler:

Exactly, exactly. There's no pride of ownership involved. But something if I say, Don, here, this, like this, this is very important to me, I trust you. Here, put your own spin on it. If you have questions, I'm here, then that's your thing now, and you're gonna do your very best to take care of that.

Dawn Andrews:

Well, and I think that that showed in the, at least the work of yours that I've had the pleasure of seeing and I imagine that shows up in other you know, other parts of your life as well. I'm going to shift for a second because I still have to go back it's like, it's like a pulled over to the side of the road and left a bag so I'm going back to get it. Okay. No, no, I'm pulling back because I'm, I'm thinking about you and corporate life. So what what role What was your corporate? What was that about? What were we What were you doing? What was the job? Was Nicole like in an office?

Nicole J. Butler:

Um, I have perfectionist tendencies, tendencies. So. So I was I was excellent. I worked for a lot of years in college, I worked at a real estate office. And one of the realtors there. He was a tech guy. He was just, he just loved his toys. And I was always interested in in tech, but I didn't know much about computers. I mean, this is like 100 years ago, so I didn't know a lot about computers and, and he sat down, he would explain things to me. And then he would look at me and go, I don't see and I would pick it up really fast. And he'd be like, I don't know why you understand this. I'm like, I don't I mean, I don't know either. But like, this is my thing. I you know, now I love it. And so I took those skills forward into other corporate America jobs because they didn't have the temperament to be a waitress. There's no way I wouldn't do that. There's no way. I'm like, okay, I can make money in corporate America until I can figure out how to get the flexibility how to get auditions how to you know how to make this acting thing work. And I hated I hated it. I hated it. I had so many jobs because I would be at a job for a while and then when they got on my nerves too badly. I would quit then I'd get another corporate America job it was just one after the other after the other. Realize is not the jobs is not even the people at the jobs is me. I don't belong here. I gotta get out of here. I was Miss. I was miserable. So a friend of mine, the same friend. His name's Elgin. I've known him since college, who read was the first one to read SR president. Yeah, it was working in production on award shows. And I said Would you please hire me and he said You are way overqualified because I was all Ways the assistant to the CEO or the CFO. And so you're way overqualified. I don't care. I will sweep the stage after the award show is over, I am miserable. So he hired me to work on an award show. I was a PA, I made $500 A week before taxes, and I crazy

Dawn Andrews:

conversation, come on.

Nicole J. Butler:

Yes, I just lowered my overhead. My personal bills, like I cut off anything that I didn't absolutely need so that I could afford to live on less. And I just, I knew that this was going to be a stepping stone. So I love it when I got my foot into the production world. And then I started, I went back to acting school, I took a two year Meisner Acting Program. And I was fortunate enough, fortunate enough to work still for my friend and his boss. And we all became friends with a lot of people they know, they knew Nicole is going to get the work done. So they will let me out to go to class two nights a week, like they will let me out a little early. So they get to class because they knew I was gonna stay late the other nights. It was a lot. It was it was a lot. I look back. I don't think I could physically do that. Now, you know, when you're young get a little more energy. But well,

Dawn Andrews:

I'm curious now. So I mean, that sounds like you know, set up for burnout and overwhelm. How do you how do you manage that for yourself? How do you look after yourself?

Nicole J. Butler:

I'm working through. I'm working through burnout right now. Actually.

Dawn Andrews:

Yeah. What is it? What does that look like for you?

Nicole J. Butler:

It looks like physical and mental exhaustion. Okay. But the working through it is it required me to I had to go back to therapy. Because I was like, something is wrong. And I don't know how to fix it. So I went back to therapy. So we're working through boundaries, and an industry that expects actors to be on call and available at all times. It's, it's hard. It's hard. I'm in the midst of it right now. So I don't have all the answers. But one of the things that I have started doing for myself is Saturdays are for me. It's not an emergency, something that I absolutely have to do. I'm not doing anything I don't want to do on Saturday, Saturdays are for me to recharge. Because a lot of times Sunday Sunday's I have to use to self tape, things that are due Monday, like auditions that are due Monday. So sometimes Saturday is the only day that I get to myself, and I take it to my take it for myself. And I feel no guilt about turning my phone off. And you know, it's like if you're bleeding or on fire, I can't help you anyway, so I'll find out on Sunday, you know, I need to take care of me.

Dawn Andrews:

I'm so will hurray for your Saturday's way to keep them I and I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing that story because I think that their given current life situation, there are a lot of people that are going through burnout right now, there are a lot of people that feel overwhelmed, sometimes, you know, for moments and sometimes ongoingly in their lives. And I'm glad that led you back in therapy. I am too. It is good to have good to have people to talk to I share with you in 2017, my body broke down, I went through a whole period of burnout, I was still running my business. It was one of the more successful years of my business. And I did have an assistant who who's helping who was helping me at the time. But there were times that I was leading my business lying on the floor with a pillow. Like I would hop up I would get in front of the camera, I do what I needed to do. And then I it was so tiring that I would have to lie down. And it pains me to think that it's a obviously I made choices that led me to that moment or didn't make choices that led me to that moment. But I do think that a lot of women are struggling and suffering like that. That's why so many women have left the workforce you

Nicole J. Butler:

I feel that like what you're saying, I get it. I get it. It's been the same way around here. Plenty of days where you know, all right,

Dawn Andrews:

what advice would you would you give to would you give to women that are feeling this way right now? What would you what would you share with them? Or what would you give them permission to do or how would you how would you advise them?

Nicole J. Butler:

Take a break. Basically, what I tell myself is okay, it's time to check yourself before you wreck yourself. And you have to take a break the world will not a world will not stop spinning. If you take some time to care for yourself because if you get sick, you know or worse because of the being burnt burnt out and your body breaks down, then the world's gonna keep going on anyway. So why not take time to take care of yourself? And it's, it's, and we know it. It's something that we know here. But here we feel like, you know, okay, we're going to miss something or we're going to miss out on an opportunity or people relying on me or whatever it is no, take care of yourself, please. Hey,

Dawn Andrews:

you know what it makes me think of is you talking about going to Italy and being able to yell back at the the Italian tollbooth guy. It is I think there's women, especially if you're building something like you're working on a creative project, you're building a business, you're getting something started. You know, I'm a mom, there are people that have, you know, complex lives that are going on. And we tell ourselves, Well, if we slow down, if we lose the momentum, that somehow we're we're not going to be able to get it back. And I'd like to think it's like Nicole with Italian yelling back at the at the toll booths guy, it may get a little rusty for a minute, a minute, but when it's time when it's time to step up, when it's time to move that project forward, you're gonna be able to curse right back at him?

Nicole J. Butler:

I think so I think so. A question I would ask myself when I knew I didn't know, I was burned out. But I knew something wasn't right. You know, when your brain just isn't working at its optimum ability, and you're tired all the time. So I didn't know it was burnout. But I was just like, I don't know, something's wrong with me. And I need to take a break and figure out what it is.

Dawn Andrews:

How did you know? How did you know you were burned out?

Nicole J. Butler:

I, for most of it, I didn't know. For most of it. I didn't know I'm trying to think when I realized I think I ran across an article that said are you you're burned out and this was during the pandemic and I was like, Oh my God, I've been burned out for years. Like how, like, that's what? Yeah. And, and then, last year, last year, when I got diagnosed with breast cancer, fine now, my first thought was, I don't have time for this. And my second thought was well, okay, I guess now I'll get some rest.

Dawn Andrews:

And isn't that? That's that's an interesting internal conversation, isn't it?

Nicole J. Butler:

Yeah. Yeah. And then I heard myself like, and I was like, Oh, my God, that's That's messed up, you know. But just going through the process going going? That's when I went back to therapy.

Dawn Andrews:

Yeah, yeah.

Nicole J. Butler:

And I was diagnosed with ADHD, which, which, which has been an eye opener, I was like, oh, things make sense.

Dawn Andrews:

With that diagnosis, what were you able to let go of, there must have been some stuff you've been hauling around forever, that once you had that, you're like, Oh, I could put all that down now. Like, what what did you let go of as a result of that diagnosis?

Nicole J. Butler:

I would wonder why other actors weren't as overwhelmed. As me like, I would be like, Okay, I see your life like, You got kids, and you got a husband, you know, and take care of all these people. I just have me, and I'm so overwhelmed all the time. What am I doing wrong? And, and I just realized, it's because the way my brain likes to organize information is not the neurotypical way. So I have to do things differently. I learned my lines differently, I have to leave notes everywhere. If I want to remember something, I better write it down. I put things in my calendar. But sometimes I have to put a note on my shoes and put my shoes right in front of the door. So that I make sure I see it. So I have all these little systems in place. And I didn't know everybody didn't do that. Last year, I was like, I thought that was normal. Now Now I get why I'm so tired. I'm trying to hold my life together all the time. Yeah,

Dawn Andrews:

oh my gosh, but what a revelation and and there are so many other folks out there like you that have their have their versions of systems and things that they're working on that help them accomplish what they want to accomplish. And now you can be in a conversation like not that anything would even need to be changed. But should you want to do whatever, you know, whatever things you want to do that you haven't felt the space energy or time for your other parts of people in a community that you can rely on to say this, like, I got my notes on my shoes, but what else are you doing? You know what I mean? Mm

Nicole J. Butler:

hmm. Yep. Yeah, yeah. I've since started researching the ADHD community. I found so many like, ways to do things that are much more efficient than the way I was doing things. And it also it's like with anything going on with you. When you don't know what's wrong, it seems so much worse. When you feel like something's wrong with me. It doesn't seem to be wrong with anybody else like, what you're just very

Dawn Andrews:

isolated. Yeah, one of my best teases has dyslexia, and then another, my other besties daughter has dyslexia. And so the daughter is still, you know, I think she's 11 right now. So she was diagnosed with dyslexia early on, she's received all sorts of intervention and conversations and training and things like that. And she's been able to read and grow and thrive. And my other bestie wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until she was in her 20s. And the amount of stuff that happens in that space, and sometimes for the worse and things that you carry around for a lifetime and a half to resolve, but also the resilience that create the creativity overall. And then the specifically creative thinking that it requires to be able to compensate for that personal challenge that you haven't put a label on is so extraordinary. If Richard Branson just had a post, I think on LinkedIn recently be talking about being a dyslexic, and classifying dyslexic thinking as one of the skill sets on LinkedIn, which I thought was beautiful, like what a great addition. And I would love to see ADHD thinking, like add thinking as a skill set, as opposed to being considered whatever people want to consider it because the resilience and creativity required to operate when your brain works a different way than most people seem to think brains work is extraordinary. Yeah,

Nicole J. Butler:

yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's, some people will call ADHD a superpower. And sometimes it is, you know, it sometimes gives you the creativity to think in a way that most people will never think, to get things done in a ridiculously short amount of time. Like, it's like, yeah, things just make sense. Now, but but then you also flame out very easily.

Dawn Andrews:

Yeah, well, I'm glad that you're addressing your burnout. I was thinking about, I have a group of women, my business BFFs shout out. And I was going when I was going through that breakdown, and 2017, I was talking to them, and they said, You know what, if you had your heart's desire, if you could wake up tomorrow, and do whatever you want, just whatever you want, what would it be? And I was like, I just want to go to sleep. And so they challenged me in that moment. You know, when you're thinking about all of all the things that could inspire you and and things you could get up to and make and grow and do. And all they wanted to do was go to sleep. So they challenged me to go to bed for four days. They said, go to bed, arrange your schedule, go get in bed, you can have some you can get up to pee and you can have somebody bring you like bring you the soup. But I want you to act like you got a cold or like you're down for the count. Ill was something else even though you're not and go to bed for four days. And then we'll get back together again. And we'll see what you're interested in doing after that. So went to bed for four days. slept off and on. Like no reading no watching anything. They're like the job is to sleep. Okay, and it was so the first day was so challenging to let go of my expectations of myself what I like I was afraid I was disappointing people what I thought I was supposed to be doing where I thought I was supposed to be going. How dare I take this luxury and got over that after day one. By the time I woke up on day four, I was like, I am a superhero. I can do it and that still there was more there was a deeper recovery required but it just was incredible. How different I felt after four days of REST call I didn't go to bed for four days.

Nicole J. Butler:

Hey, you don't have to tell me twice. I go to bed every chance I get. I took a long nap. Yes. Yesterday. I have to I have to. My mother will always say you don't need a nap. You're not a baby. Okay, I'll call you when I wake up. Yeah, we need more rest. Instead of push, push, push, constantly just abusing our bodies. We need more rest. And I'd like to add because you asked what would I say to women who are currently burned out. Give yourself permission to offload some of your responsibilities. I've hired my sister to work as a virtual assistant, one of my one of my sisters. So she handles my calendar now. Like that was one of the things that I was like always in the minutia, and it took a lot of time and she's she's got it now. And if there's something urgent she'll alert me to it. I 95% of the time, I don't go to the grocery store, I just ordered my groceries via via Instacart. That's just taking time I send my laundry out to be washed now. And yes, the first time I mentioned that mission that to a friend, she was like, Oh, you get it? Oh, you're a superstar. I'm like, No, I'm just a woman with a lot to do. And if I don't have to do it, why am I doing it? Let me just, you know, my time is worth more than that dollar 50 per pound or whatever. Yeah, let me send it out to people who do do this is their job so that I can do my job more efficiently? And I can rest? Yes,

Dawn Andrews:

yes. Because there's only one of you. I need you to be around a little bit longer.

Nicole J. Butler:

No, thank you. I'm trying to be I'm trying to get all this help.

Dawn Andrews:

Me to join? Yes, let's

Nicole J. Butler:

do it. Let's

Dawn Andrews:

do it. Simple array with our walkers, our big old tall selves.

Nicole J. Butler:

Will have to join the Red Hat society. Have you seen?

Dawn Andrews:

Yes, yes.

Nicole J. Butler:

Fabulous. I love

Dawn Andrews:

the Red Hat. Well, I so I'm so appreciative of your time, I have one last question for you. And it may it may take a little bit of brainpower. We'll see if you can Vamp if you need more time to answer the question. But here it is. This is your message to female leaders. So imagine yourself standing in Time Square, with all the noise and loud and sparkle and you're looking at the largest billboard that there is. What would you put on that billboard, to share with women who are leading?

Nicole J. Butler:

Trust your gut, move,

Dawn Andrews:

love it. Tell me more about that.

Nicole J. Butler:

Your gut always knows we talk ourselves out of things that we feel. Because feeling when somebody says you're emotional, you're emotional when woman women are just emotional. It's made to sound like that. So that's a negative. But it's not because the gut always knows. The brain can can can try to talk you out of anything or be convinced of certain things. But in your gut when you get still and quiet. You know what the truth of the situation is? So trust your gut, maybe trust your gut. Always. That would be Oh,

Dawn Andrews:

yeah. Thank you. I look forward to seeing that up there. In my mind's eye, thank you. Nicola, where can people find you?

Nicole J. Butler:

You can always find me at Nicole J. butler.com. That's my website. And I am all over the internet at on social media at at Nicole J. Butler. Yeah. Very easy to find.

Dawn Andrews:

She's fun to follow on Instagram, y'all. For real?

Nicole J. Butler:

Yeah, I love Twitter's my favorite.

Dawn Andrews:

Whoa, okay. I haven't there yet. It's like

Nicole J. Butler:

a. It's like a big virtual cocktail party. And as an introvert, I don't have to go anywhere. I can be here in my pajamas at a cocktail party. I can follow who I want to talk to who I want leave when I want. Yes.

Dawn Andrews:

Oh my god, it's the best party ever.

Unknown:

Yes. Well,

Dawn Andrews:

thank you again for your time today and for sharing your wisdom and for being so vulnerable and open about the things that you're moving through. Because you're you are certainly not alone. There are so many women that are in that very place right now. And I think that you've provided some really thoughtful, thoughtful advice and support to them. So thank you so much for being with us.

Nicole J. Butler:

Thank you. Thank you. I have enjoyed this conversation immensely. I was nervous at the beginning. You It was fun. And you're you're excellent at what you do. You.

Dawn Andrews:

Thank you so much. All right. Well, on the flip side soon enough, and hopefully with another project in your pocket. Can't wait to see what you do next.

Nicole J. Butler:

Okay. All right. See you soon. Bye. Bye.

Dawn Andrews:

Thank you for joining us this week. To view the complete show notes and all the links mentioned in today's episode, visit Mike Good woman.com Before you go, make sure you follow or subscribe to the podcast so you can receive fresh episodes when they drop. And if you're enjoying my good woman, leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Reviews are one of the major ways that Apple ranks their podcasts. So even though it only takes a few seconds, it really does make a difference. This episode is produced by me Brian Marcus and Kathleen O'Shaughnessy, thank you again for joining me Dawn Andrews in this episode of my good woman. I'll see you next time.