Have you ever had a conversation with somebody you just met and felt like they know you better than, you know yourself. So much so you almost feel like you're sitting there naked in the chair in front of them. Well, that's the conversation I just finished with My Good Woman, Tracy Crossley.
If you are a high achieving woman who prioritizes your business goals over your mental and personal health, this episode is for you.
Tracy is committed to changing that. With her background in business, marketing, psychology, ontological coaching, and emotional intelligence, Tracy is the game changer for women leaders reinventing how they live and lead from the inside out.
In this episode, Tracy and I discuss
This episode at a glance:
[04:09] It's about your self-worth because you derive your self-worth from your accomplishment or your business, whether it's successful or it's failing.
[08:33] We can be self sabotaging without knowing that that's what we're doing. Even if we're having tremendous success, we may be struggling in certain areas.
[20:30] You may have great ideas, you may be an awesome leader in terms of strategy, but getting everybody on your page doesn't work because you don't have a lot of tolerance for people if they're not like you.
[29:43] There's a limit to how much we can achieve if we rely and lean on those old school patterns.
[39:23] You wanna make your decisions not from fear. I'm telling you, most people make it from fear. It's reactionary. It is not original in creative thought at all.
Resources and Links mentioned in this episode:
You might also like:
More about the “My Good Woman” podcast
My Good Woman is a podcast for bold female leaders hosted by me, Dawn Andrews! Grab a seat at the table for candid conversations with culture-shifting, glass-ceiling-busting, trailblazing women, leading enterprises that are changing the world. Follow along so that you can catch all of the episodes. And before you go, leave us a review!
Want to increase revenue and impact? Listen to “My Good Woman” for insights on business strategy and female leadership to scale your business. Each episode offers advice on effective communication, team building, and management. Learn to master routines and systems to boost productivity and prevent burnout. Our delegation tips and business consulting will advance your executive leadership skills and presence.
Have you ever had a conversation with somebody you just met and felt like they know you better than, you know yourself. So much so you almost feel like you're sitting there naked in the chair in front of them. Well, that's the conversation I just finished with My Good Woman, Tracy Crossley.
If you are a high achieving woman who prioritizes your business goals over your mental and personal health, this episode is for you.
Tracy is committed to changing that. With her background in business, marketing, psychology, ontological coaching, and emotional intelligence, Tracy is the game changer for women leaders reinventing how they live and lead from the inside out.
In this episode, Tracy and I discuss
This episode at a glance:
[04:09] It's about your self-worth because you derive your self-worth from your accomplishment or your business, whether it's successful or it's failing.
[08:33] We can be self sabotaging without knowing that that's what we're doing. Even if we're having tremendous success, we may be struggling in certain areas.
[20:30] You may have great ideas, you may be an awesome leader in terms of strategy, but getting everybody on your page doesn't work because you don't have a lot of tolerance for people if they're not like you.
[29:43] There's a limit to how much we can achieve if we rely and lean on those old school patterns.
[39:23] You wanna make your decisions not from fear. I'm telling you, most people make it from fear. It's reactionary. It is not original in creative thought at all.
Resources and Links mentioned in this episode:
You might also like:
More about the “My Good Woman” podcast
My Good Woman is a podcast for bold female leaders hosted by me, Dawn Andrews! Grab a seat at the table for candid conversations with culture-shifting, glass-ceiling-busting, trailblazing women, leading enterprises that are changing the world. Follow along so that you can catch all of the episodes. And before you go, leave us a review!
Want to increase revenue and impact? Listen to “My Good Woman” for insights on business strategy and female leadership to scale your business. Each episode offers advice on effective communication, team building, and management. Learn to master routines and systems to boost productivity and prevent burnout. Our delegation tips and business consulting will advance your executive leadership skills and presence.
Have you ever had a conversation with somebody you just met? That feels like they know you better than, you know yourself. So much so you almost feel like you're sitting there naked in the chair in front of them. Well, that's the conversation I just finished with My Good Woman, Tracy Crossley.
If you are a high achieving woman who prioritizes your business goals over your mental and personal health, this episode is for you.
Tracy is committed to changing that. Tracy is a behavioral expert, author and podcast host of two weekly podcasts. Freedom from Attachment. Which focuses on leaving insecurity behind. And The Power of Me: Creating Meaningful Success, focused on female leaders and the issues many have with emotional wellbeing, bias, expectations, and self-doubt.
Her book Overcoming Insecure Attachment. Gives the real deal how tos on overcoming insecurities that limit your leadership effectiveness. With her background in business, marketing, psychology, ontological coaching, and emotional intelligence, Tracy is the game changer for women leaders reinventing how they live and lead from the inside out.
In today's episode, Tracy shares her insights on the three archetypes of dysfunctional CEO's and actionable strategies for mental management in both our professional and personal lives. We also get into the time we waste trying to fit into leadership boxes and how to become an unlimited leader. Aren't you excited and ready to dig in? Grab a cup of coffee, get comfortable and enjoy my conversation with My Good Woman. Tracy Crossley.
[00:02:39] Dawn Andrews: My Good Woman, Tracy Crosley. I'm so excited to have you on the show.
[00:02:44] Tracy Crossley: I am totally thrilled to be here. I cannot wait to get into this conversation.
[00:02:48] Dawn Andrews: Ooh, girl. So, the reason I was excited to have you as a guest is you and I had a chance to do a little bit of a pre-chat. I had the opportunity to check out your website and your book that you've written and there's another one on the way. Everybody will be talking a little bit about that too. But why I'm excited to have this conversation is that you and I both share a love of women in leadership.
[00:03:10] Dawn Andrews: We share a love for female CEOs and entrepreneurs, and we also have in common our curiosity and connection to the underlying psychology that has women succeed or that gets in their way. And that's what I'm excited to unpack with you today and get your expertise and you know, the things that you've seen and your point of view about it so that we can hopefully, leave women that are listening with some freedom and empowerment for having been part of the conversation today. Sound good?
[00:03:37] Tracy Crossley: Yeah, that sounds great. I feel like I wanna be in the audience listening,
[00:03:42] Dawn Andrews: Well, that's the beauty of a podcast it lives on and you can listen back, . So what's interesting to me is, you mentioned in outreach to me, high achieving women have a habit of putting their businesses first, whatever it is, whatever the next achievement is, that they're about the health of their company before they're about their own health, their own mental health, their own physical health. where do you think that comes from?
[00:04:03] Tracy Crossley: Uh, I'm going to say it and it's probably gonna go over like a lead balloon, but it's really about your self-worth. It's about your self-worth because you derive your self-worth from your accomplishment or your business, whether it's successful or it's failing. If you wake up and you have, let's say, great revenue coming in and everything is wonderful, you don't really maybe feel so bad.
[00:04:27] Tracy Crossley: Maybe you're kind of numb. Maybe you are thinking about the next thing you need to do to keep the revenue going, but when, let's say that revenue is down as an example, how do you actually feel? Do you personalize it? Do you feel like you're worthless? Do you feel like what you've done has basically not gotten you where you thought it would go, and this can just be a moment in time. This doesn't necessarily mean that your business has failed. It's gone under, but it means what meaning you're giving to it about you, rather than it just being about the business.
[00:04:57] Dawn Andrews: So women in those instances, they've knit their identity into their circumstance.
[00:05:02] Tracy Crossley: Yep, exactly.
[00:05:04] Dawn Andrews: Gotcha. Well, so tell me a little bit about you and how this came to be a passionate topic for you, how you came to focus on this.
[00:05:12] Tracy Crossley: It's really kind of interesting because I've been an entrepreneur since I was a small child, as many entrepreneurs , right? We all have our story, you know, I was selling popcorn balls, chocolate chip cookies. I'd go to the store and buy candy bars and resell 'em to the kids in the neighborhood.
[00:05:28] Dawn Andrews: Ooh, what kind of markup on that? What's,
[00:05:30] Tracy Crossley: I don't, you know what?
[00:05:31] Dawn Andrews: payday bar?
[00:05:32] Tracy Crossley: I know, but I would, I would go on my bike and I would come back and kids would be like, oh, I think like 25 cents. It wasn't anything amazing and it was just the point of there was something about it that I loved doing and you know, like I sold Avon door to door when I was in high school. I did all sorts of stuff like, yeah.
[00:05:51] Tracy Crossley: Yeah. I was like the cold call queen. Literally calling people showing up at their office when I was in sales in my twenties. And so I've always worked very hard. Let's just say like business to me was always intellectually stimulating. But you know, in the context of how I, I managed to get here and be passionate about women, it took me years.
[00:06:15] Tracy Crossley: So, you know, going back into my early career, my middle career, and now at this point in my career, I think I've really become very cognizant of how different it is for women than it is for men. Even though I've worked with females and males, you know, leaders, both sides, and it's not necessarily one against the other, but there are different issues for women and I just feel like I'm a big proponent of, let's please get past this. Let's try to, you know, look at this from a different perspective, which is from the inside out.
[00:06:47] Dawn Andrews: Excellent. So where do you have the opportunity to have those kinds of inside out conversations? How does that happen for you?
[00:06:53] Tracy Crossley: Well, I have a podcast also, and my one goal this year with it is to interview 500 female leaders. So that's a big thing. Uh, I don't know. Yeah, , I'm like, I mean, I'm committed to it, so I'm thinking, you know what? It's gonna happen.
[00:07:08] Tracy Crossley: And so I'm just game for it. And so I'm having conversations, I'm learning more. I'm writing this book, I'm doing research, and I have clients that are female leaders and right. So it's like all of these different places, I'm getting feedback and it's just reaffirming for me, basically the work that I'm doing.
[00:07:27] Dawn Andrews: I love the approach that you have, which is, let's change the conversation around women in leadership and go from the inside out. So, in all of it, you're engaging with 500 women in these conversations over the course of the year. What's available to them for looking at how they are in leadership, how they are in business from the inside out, what happens next?
[00:07:48] Tracy Crossley: Well, you know, first you have to become aware of how you lead.
[00:07:51] Tracy Crossley: And some people may think, well, this is just the way I am. And that way you may be, could be very anxious. You could be very avoidant with people. Especially when it comes to people on your team. You don't get along with them. You don't wanna hear anything that could be emotional, any sort of, let's say, issue obstacle.
[00:08:10] Tracy Crossley: If you're willing to look at it, then the next step would be you can contact me. And I have programs that I create, but we also have programs that are in place. Because the point is when you discover there's an issue, you wanna get past all your insecurities or as many as you can. You wanna get past any self-doubt.
[00:08:28] Tracy Crossley: And the sort of things that we do as a leader can sometimes feed it without us knowing. You know, we can be self sabotaging without knowing that that's what we're doing. Even if we're having tremendous success, we may be struggling in certain areas to accomplish that.
[00:08:43] Dawn Andrews: what are some of the typical places that you see women struggling in leadership? In leadership and in delivering results in their business?
[00:08:50] Tracy Crossley: so on the external rather than the internal. I would say externally I see it where there's a lot of turnover. Even if you have, let's say, a staff, employees, you know, whatever your situation happens to be, you have tenuous relationships. You are not always getting people on your team to do what you would like them to do, to follow through, to, to listen, to get along.
[00:09:13] Tracy Crossley: And so usually it shows up there, it shows up in an inability, let's say, to get funding. If you're looking for funding, it shows up in an, in inability to negotiate for yourself. It shows up in these areas where women may speak up but then judge themselves as, oh shoot, I shouldn't speak up that much.
[00:09:33] Tracy Crossley: I can speak up, you know, to this degree I can speak up 50%, but if I speak up a hundred percent of the time and then nobody's going to listen to me. So there's a lot of self-judgment that goes into that. And so people may feel your leadership is inconsistent.
[00:09:46] Dawn Andrews: Gosh, that topic alone of finding your voice and speaking up is so rich to me. How would you counsel someone kind of on either end of the spectrum? So there are women that seem to sit back or need to process, and they're in the meeting. They're, they have a leadership moment or an opportunity, or wanna move further up into something, or wanna go start something, but they can't seem to find their words, can't seem to, you know, represent themselves.
[00:10:12] Dawn Andrews: And then there's the other end of the spectrum where women are called bitchy, bossy. They're so outspoken that people almost can't hear them because they're so outspoken. How do you approach those two ends of that spectrum and counsel them into equilibrium?
[00:10:26] Tracy Crossley: So for the reluctant. Or let's say passive leader, the one who's sitting back and you know, really doesn't use her voice. There's usually a lot of fear around speaking up and saying the wrong thing or speaking up, and it's the wrong choice, not just the wrong thing, but you're making the wrong choice, the wrong direction.
[00:10:46] Tracy Crossley: So a lot of times you're trying to get to a place where, okay, I have a hundred percent prediction that this is gonna go well, right? Then maybe I will say something, but a lot of times people like this are looking for other people to give advice, right? They're looking for, okay, is that gonna be okay? Is that gonna work?
[00:11:03] Tracy Crossley: And some people may think that's collaborative, but when it's coming from insecurity, it's really not. And so what I would do in that situation, which I would also do this across the board, I work with people on getting rid of their insecurities. I work with women on having confidence because they breathe and being able to trust themselves so that when they are speaking, you are coming from a place of.
[00:11:27] Tracy Crossley: When you trust yourself, so then you know, right. You know what you're saying. You are confident in what you're saying. You believe in what you're saying. And with that, other people are more than likely gonna listen to you. And if they don't, then you really need to evaluate who it is you are speaking with, whether it's people who work for you or people who are clients, whoever it happens to be, you really need to look at that.
[00:11:51] Tracy Crossley: And then the other spectrum, the other side of it, you know, and, and for me for a long time, I would go back and forth between these two.
[00:11:57] Dawn Andrews: Uh, that your personal identity or, or how you showed up in the world as a leader would kind of swing on the pendulum.
[00:12:03] Tracy Crossley: Oh yeah. Depending on what was going on, because you're always reading your own bias. Okay. Women aren't supposed to do that. Oh, but women are supposed to do this. Oh, don't be too loud. Oh, don't be too quiet. Right? You've got this whole thing going on in your head. So with women that are loud, very passionate, self-expressed. It's their way or the highway. For women like that, you have to look at your issues with control. Why are you needing to establish control? You can control yourself, but to control everything and everybody around you isn't true leadership. You're actually not being a visionary because
[00:12:41] Tracy Crossley: it's like playing chess. You know, you're strategizing. If I say this, then people will respond, and if I'm direct and I'm to the point and blah, blah, blah, but when there's no other room for other people, because you need to allow people around you to express themselves or to be a part of what you're doing.
[00:12:58] Tracy Crossley: Then you know, there's so many different ways I work with people, but this is again, an insecurity issue. This is all about control. This is all about not being heard. This is all about all of the things that stand in the way with you being able to, let's say, bond with other people in business.
[00:13:14] Dawn Andrews: I'm thinking of myself. I'm putting myself in a listener's shoes and imagining, well, how do I know something's going on for me? What do I notice? And you mentioned turnover, you mentioned relationships with other people, and it seems like that's the most, recognizable sign is just looking at the quality of your relationships with the people that you're leading.
[00:13:31] Dawn Andrews: How is that going? What's the level of collaboration? Like the true level of collaboration, and have you checked in with yourself to see, are you trying to herd and control them? Or are you looking for a validation and, acknowledgement and, affirmation from them? Or are you actually indeed collaborating with them?
[00:13:50] Dawn Andrews: How does one know when that is actually happening? Is it just that there's the absence of the other things? Like is it just a quieter place? I'm just wondering how somebody would recognize that.
[00:14:00] Tracy Crossley: Well, there's a couple different ways to recognize that. First, it's how you feel. So most women, let's say, that are very outward, very, controlling will have a hard time recognizing how they feel because they're not checked into their feelings, and you're feelings sort of work like a billboard.
[00:14:17] Tracy Crossley: They give you a sign that what's going on, so if you're anxious, okay, I'm anxious. Why am I anxious? What is it related to? That's usually one big sign. You know, cuz you're worried about something and or something's upsetting you, but maybe you're not addressing it. So anxiety gives you that clue. The other thing that would give you a clue is when you don't have focus.
[00:14:39] Tracy Crossley: you know, when you're all over the map that's a distraction. And when you're in a place where you're distracting yourself away from probably what is going on. A lot of us will turn to these patterns of behavior without even knowing we're doing it because we've been doing it for so long.
[00:14:54] Dawn Andrews: Yeah. It just feels like who we are and how we do things.
[00:14:57] Tracy Crossley: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:58] Dawn Andrews: I'm gonna back up for one second. There are a few different, types of CEOs that you've identified. Would you share with me the different types of CEOs that you've picked out and share a little bit of the characteristics of each?
[00:15:11] Tracy Crossley: Okay. So there's three different types that are, I don't wanna say unhealthy, but let's just say less than functional or they're functional, but the, it's,
[00:15:21] Dawn Andrews: Could be more effective. Could be
[00:15:23] Tracy Crossley: Right. Thank you. That's, that's a much better way of putting it. And then there's of course one where you got it all together, the courageous leader.
[00:15:30] Tracy Crossley: But to start with, we'll start with the rollercoaster leader. The rollercoaster leader is somebody who's inconsistent. So you never know where she's coming from. She may be one day, saying, let's do this. And the next day, oh, I changed my mind. Let's do that. Because she doesn't trust herself. And yet she's not necessarily passive and she's not necessarily assertive.
[00:15:51] Tracy Crossley: Like some days she might be, and other days she might not. And so in this kind of leader, it's really difficult to be loyal or to go, okay, let's follow her because you feel like you're gonna follow her right into a wall. So that's one type of leader.
[00:16:05] Dawn Andrews: In, in my world cuz you and I share similar conversations with people. I call them whiplash CEOs. You're trying to follow the train of thought for that person, and from their perspective, they may have a view of themselves as being idea people or visionary or, innovators. Disruptors. There are all these kind of positive connotations sometimes to that behavior.
[00:16:30] Dawn Andrews: What do you do to interrupt that? Because they may not have an understanding of what that behavior does to the rest of their team and to their organization and to their results and everything else. How do you interrupt that rollercoaster style leadership?
[00:16:44] Tracy Crossley: So we look at all of the ways this person does or doesn't show up professionally and personally because you wanna have a whole life picture because there's usually something that they're running from and something they're running to. In other words, accomplishment means a lot, but there's also a big fear failure, and I think a lot of people have a fear of failure no matter what kind of CEO they are.
[00:17:03] Tracy Crossley: But there is this sense of deep down inside, do I really deserve my success, do I really deserve to get there? And so there's a part of them that is sabotaging at the same time that they're trying to get to the goal. Because I understand, like I used to do a lot of these things. Oh, I'm a visionary. I got a new idea today.
[00:17:21] Tracy Crossley: Sorry guys, let's go in this direction now. I drive everybody nuts on my team. But when I started slowing down and I was looking at how I was just ready to discard what I was doing for something else because either it lost its flavor or no, there's obstacles, I gotta find out a way around it, or I've gotta come up with something different.
[00:17:43] Tracy Crossley: You know it, it's like you are constantly like a spinning top and the problem is you make success a lot harder than it needs to be.
[00:17:51] Dawn Andrews: well, everything you've described so far, so I just wanna put a pin in that. So we were talking about the three, three different CEO types and we're talking about the roller coaster, c e o right now, and talking about making things harder than it needs to be. With everything that you've shared so far, what is kind of screaming out at me is the amount of energy that women are spending, managing all of the thought process behind being a woman, whether to speak up or not, or speaking up too much or not, or, or trying to manage their ideas or whether they don't have ideas, like so much energy is being spent in.
[00:18:23] Dawn Andrews: Trying to contain and fit into the right box in place that could be spent in creating a new product, making a difference for people, delivering results. It's just like, I'm kind of exhausted as we talk through it. Thinking about what that's like for being a woman, trying to manage my mental state as a leader.
[00:18:39] Tracy Crossley: Yeah, I think that's really hard. And I wanted to say one other thing too, when it comes to somebody that's the rollercoaster leader, so not only with the switching of ideas, let's say, or projects or you know, let's go after this, clients in this industry or what have you, they also tend to be rescuers.
[00:18:56] Tracy Crossley: And so what that means is I may spend more time worrying about my staff's personal issues, because it's safer, it feels easier, and therefore I can put my time towards that. So then I'll take myself totally off course and I will put other people, you know, the people that are working for me above the needs of the company.
[00:19:18] Tracy Crossley: And then, that could be momentary. And then you're back into, okay, what do we do next? And back and forth again, all over the map.
[00:19:24] Dawn Andrews: Yeah. Whew. Okay, so that's the rollercoaster. CEO, who else we got on the lineup?
[00:19:31] Tracy Crossley: Well, uh, I guess we could go to the train wreck. CEO the train wreck. C e o. Right.
[00:19:36] Dawn Andrews: Excellent. I feel like that some days I'd love to hear about the train wreck ceo.
[00:19:41] Tracy Crossley: It was funny because somebody actually had described the CEO and they said a dumpster fire. And I thought that's interesting. Like their personal life was a dumpster fire. Not necessarily that their business life is a dumpster fire, but they have usually a non-existent, uh, personal life or their personal life is, is secondary. It's not primary.
[00:20:02] Dawn Andrews: and it sounds like deeply secondary. Not just it's second in line in terms of priority, but it's like a distant second.
[00:20:09] Tracy Crossley: And people around them may not know that because they can also give off. Everything's just fine this way. You know, I don't need to have a personal life, or I go on great vacations, or I own great things or what have you. But when you are that CEO, you're like a lone wolf. You are an island, and a lot of people don't understand you.
[00:20:28] Tracy Crossley: They don't connect to you. You may have great ideas, you may be an awesome leader in terms of strategy, but getting everybody on your page doesn't work because you don't have a lot of tolerance for people if they're not like you. You want people to be like you, and that's very difficult. And so you're always judging, you're always comparing.
[00:20:49] Tracy Crossley: You even will compete with people. And so you spend time like, I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna show her. And then, you're doing this because again, everything I talk about goes back to these insecurities, and a lot of these insecurities are from childhood. So it's not like you're creating this on purpose.
[00:21:05] Dawn Andrews: Of course, yeah. It's an automatic driver.
[00:21:07] Tracy Crossley: Right. And so, people might think you're a bully, think you're the B word. You know, they may think all sorts of things. They may not really ever know you, and you may feel very isolated, like you're the lone wolf and you're choosing that. But there's also a sense of isolation that can come with that.
[00:21:23] Tracy Crossley: And so sometimes your ideas fall with a thud and nobody's around to celebrate, or they seem like they're gonna celebrate. Maybe they're afraid and they're celebrating with you, but people fear you rather than feel bonded to you.
[00:21:35] Dawn Andrews: That breaks my heart.
[00:21:36] Tracy Crossley: Yes. Because deep down inside, you're not this way, it's just, it's the coding. That's what's safe for you because you don't, you're afraid to let anybody in. You're afraid to let anybody close. You don't trust other people. You trust yourself in a way. You trust yourself to do the hard work..
[00:21:52] Tracy Crossley: Beyond that, you're not sure how long you'll be able to sustain your success.
[00:21:58] Tracy Crossley: You may think at some point you're just gonna fall into a huge pothole and never get out of it, which I don't think would ever happen because it's just a fear. And so a lot of that fear is to make sure that doesn't happen. And that's what keeps you constantly going and keeps you connected to this is my life, my work is my life.
[00:22:16] Dawn Andrews: Well, and so just to flip this for a second, because we were talking earlier about some of the behaviors or, or outcomes that help us identify that maybe there's some, inward looking to be done. What are the benefits of the rollercoaster and the train wreck CEO?
[00:22:30] Dawn Andrews: In my work, I often find that I am working with folks that have been celebrated for the very things that are also, it. It's like their kryptonite, you know? It gives them their strength and it also can tear them down. So what are the winning traits, if you will? Things that maybe rollercoaster or train wreck CEOs have been celebrated for, but they're actually inhibiting their path to growth and their effectiveness as leaders.
[00:22:52] Tracy Crossley: I always look at it like any of these, you know, and I haven't talked about the passive leader yet either, but when it comes to these leadership, positions, of course there's always benefits. But you have to look at how the benefits are actually small compared to being unlimited . Because I always have the goal of I wanna be unlimited.
[00:23:12] Tracy Crossley: That means I need to get the hell outta my own way. So by being in your way, uh, you know somebody that's the train wreck CEO you're gonna drive it home. You, if you have to walk it there, you're gonna walk it there. You there is not a lot that stands in your way. Brick wall going through it. So there is that tenacity.
[00:23:31] Tracy Crossley: There's that grit. There is that I am gonna do it no matter what. The chips are down, you can count. I'm not down. So even though there's a fear that you could end up, you know, like I said in the pothole, the way you move your energy, nope. You're just going through it. So that's one. with the rollercoaster CEO, you know, the benefit is that as a rescuer there's gonna be people that think you're great for a moment, but not all the time.
[00:23:59] Tracy Crossley: Because as a rescuer it doesn't actually work to bring people closer either. They're not really on your but you may bring on some great people. You may also have some decent results based on people liking you. You know, you're more likable. Like people may think, oh, you know, she's likable even though I don't know what she's gonna do. And , I dunno quite where we're going.
[00:24:22] Dawn Andrews: She's thoroughly unpredictable. Yeah.
[00:24:24] Tracy Crossley: right? Yes. But you know, there is gonna be people who like her and there's gonna be people that wanna try and control the situation too, and in some cases that's what ends up happening. And so, with the passive, which we haven't really gotten to the passive leader, but I can address that I guess when we talk about the passive leader.
[00:24:41] Dawn Andrews: Yeah. Well, let's, let's talk about that. So that's, so we were talking about the three CEO types. We talked about the rollercoaster, we talked about the train wreck, so the passive CEOs. Your next is the third.
[00:24:52] Tracy Crossley: So it's kind of interesting, right? Because you think leader passive, how's that work? But there are a lot of passive leaders out there, and they've let other people do the work for them. It's not that they're lazy, it's just that they don't trust what they have to say. And so they will only speak like we were talking about in the beginning, you know when they're sitting in a meeting, they're taking it in, they're listening, and they go "okay".
[00:25:16] Tracy Crossley: So this is where I need to go and ask everybody or five mentors or you know, enough people that I feel I can actually say this as a directive. And even when I'm saying it as a directive, I'm still not really trusting it. And it may not come across to the people listening as something that they should take and run with.
[00:25:38] Tracy Crossley: And that's just because there's a lot of passivity. So with the passive leader, it's always about other people. And so there's a lot of people pleasing and there's a lot of manipulation in that way of getting people on your team, look, I really need your help with this, if you do this, then I can promote you.
[00:25:55] Tracy Crossley: Or you know, all these great things can happen. And not that you shouldn't be promoting people anyways. It's just the way you're going about it. Because what you're hoping is that everybody else around you is gonna bring it home and then you can go, okay, we did it even though maybe you didn't really do very much.
[00:26:12] Dawn Andrews: So in that flip side that we were talking about with rollercoaster and train wreck CEOs, it sounds like how comfort CEOs can appear is as collaborators or champions of their team, or, you know, inclusive and letting their team take the lead. But the flip side is they're letting their team take the lead.
[00:26:33] Dawn Andrews: They're actually not the guiding force that's driving the choices that the team is making and the things that the team is delivering. How does a person end up in a place of leadership when they've been, maybe where they're coming from is a, that passive leadership position, how do they ascend? Or is it just a limited growth path?
[00:26:51] Tracy Crossley: They make friends. And people will tend to feel responsible for helping them along. You know what? She needs help. Let's get her, let's help her along. And again, this is not a lazy person. This is just a person who has a lot of insecurities. And I think I forgot before I gave you the names that I changed it to passive CEO instead of Comfort CEO, I was thinking about that. Cause when I was writing the book, I'm like, ah, you know, pass, it's passive. I kept trying not to use the word passive, but passive. yeah.
[00:27:20] Dawn Andrews: But it is passive CEO. Okay. So train wreck, roller coaster, and passive CEOs. So when people have the opportunity to look inward And reflect and address and confront even some of these types of behaviors and insecurities and ways of thinking. Where does that lead them? What are you helping people to move towards? What style of leadership?
[00:27:40] Tracy Crossley: I'm helping them to become a courageous leader. So a courageous leader is somebody who is not putting limitations down out of fear. A lot of times women won't take the risks that are necessary to advance either the business or a project or, or what ever it is that they're dealing with.
[00:27:56] Tracy Crossley: And there's a lot of reticence in doing that. Well, I gotta keep doing the same thing that's worked in the past. No, you have to take the risks and it's the risk and it's having the confidence to do that and not stay awake all night long, you know, it's really about trusting that you're doing the right thing without holding on to the results as something that you personally identify with.
[00:28:19] Tracy Crossley: It means that you've moved past this, that it's the doing that you enjoy. It's the doing that you're connected to. And yes, you're doing everything to get the results you want, but you're not gonna go down on the mat with the results. And that's the thing I think for most people, is what's gonna happen to me?
[00:28:36] Tracy Crossley: How am I gonna feel if this doesn't work? And with a courageous leader, Hey, you know what? There's resilience and we're all resilient. But the courageous leader knows that they're resilient. And so we move beyond a lot of the beliefs and the patterns and the stories that keep these other types in the same situation day in and day out. And it takes a lot of discomfort because change is uncomfortable to get there.
[00:29:00] Dawn Andrews: Yeah. And I would imagine that part of the reason why people are engaging with you is to have a place to practice that. Because it seems to me like how you develop confidence, resilience, like it's always the risk first and playing through it that develops the resilience and the confidence.
[00:29:14] Dawn Andrews: It's not, you have it first and therefore you take the risk. It's because you took the risk that you develop that greater flexibility, belief in yourself, et cetera. It's difficult to do that without guidance.
[00:29:25] Dawn Andrews: As you're sharing with me, Tracy, it almost strikes me as like helping to reparent people, because most of this stuff is coming from whatever our childhood wounds, stories, like paradigms that we've set up, to survive in the world.
[00:29:39] Dawn Andrews: And then you get to a certain place where those patterns don't work anymore. They aren't serving us to your point, there's a limit to how much we can achieve if we rely and lean on those old school patterns. And so it sounds like you're helping to reparent a little bit, to give people a space to practice this inside their leadership position, but in a conversation with you to be able to transcend it.
[00:29:59] Tracy Crossley: And also my whole thing is about action. So it's not just a discussion, it's really getting to the core of what is it that's driving you to these behaviors and changing those behaviors permanently. Because for me it was all about, I don't wanna feel the way I do. I could be out there having success after success, but it wasn't really meaningful because I wasn't feeling the meaning.
[00:30:23] Tracy Crossley: I was so afraid of resting on my laurels, or I was so afraid of criticism or you know, something going wrong that my whole focus was on, nothing can go wrong, I gotta control everything. And so I think a lot of women find themselves that way because they don't want to be seen as weak or they don't want to be seen as a poor leader or whatever it is they're afraid of. That was why it became important to me to help people to permanently change these things so that they can be unlimited. So that you're not afraid, you're not thinking, oh gosh, I'm only as valuable as my last win.
[00:30:58] Dawn Andrews: Was there a moment for you in your journey, even to get to hear and develop this material, was there a, an aha moment, a pivot point where you just said, okay, now I like I see it now I recognize it. I don't know what to do about it, but how do I shift that for myself? Because I imagine every single one of us has a point like that, that we must hit to be able to move on to our next, iteration of what leadership looks like for us. What was that like for you?
[00:31:23] Tracy Crossley: There was a couple of times because in different parts of my business, I worked in corporate also and I don't think I could go back to corporate and do the things that I used to do. And plus I'm an entrepreneur at heart anyways. Point is, the first one was around people. And because I could be a real bitch, I could, you know, and the reason being is I hated excuses. Like if people came to me with excuses, I was like, oh my God, it's not the dog ate your homework. Just tell me what you're gonna do to fix it. That would always be what I would say, right? But it didn't come off that way.
[00:31:55] Tracy Crossley: And so then in my business, I realized for a long time, I've been doing this for 15 years, that when somebody started to not show up, because of course I'm working in a virtual environment. I could see how I would start pushing them out the door. I would already be like, okay, you know what?
[00:32:11] Tracy Crossley: This person's wasting my time. I'm not dealing with this. They're out. And I thought, okay, Tracy, why do you keep throwing the baby out with a bath water? And it occurred to me, I don't know how many years ago. It was probably only in the last five years where I started to really love having people working with me. You know, that I felt, okay, this person, they're trying their hardest, like, I don't know why I couldn't see that before. Like a lot of people show up and they are doing their best, right? And I don't have to throw the baby out with a bath water. I could actually nurture the relationship and give people also the space with their own ideas. With allowing people. Because I think for a long time I always felt like I had to be the one. Otherwise, what value did I have if I wasn't following through with the idea and being a workaholic, things like that. Okay, so that was the one.
[00:33:02] Dawn Andrews: One pivot moment for
[00:33:03] Tracy Crossley: you.
[00:33:04] Tracy Crossley: yeah, huge pivot moment. Like I have an awesome team. I love my team. My team is great. And even on days where, okay, mistake, I don't even care about mistakes. I don't care about mistakes because I'm gonna assume you're taking responsibility and I don't have to think about it. Right? Right. Because unless, the sky is falling, we're good. So the other thing is, it was about revenue.
[00:33:24] Tracy Crossley: And one of the things that I used to do is if revenue wasn't great, I would make my decisions based off of not great revenue, which meant, okay, gotta hunker down, gotta get rid of things, don't spend money, don't hire people. And actually when I did the opposite of that, and I just did it because I got to a place where I felt like I was in the flow of my business where things are just gonna work. And I trust that, which is very, um, God, I don't even know the word for it. Not crazy, but, but it really was that feeling of,
[00:34:01] Dawn Andrews: Well, it seems, it seems counterintuitive because if you're going through a difficult time in the operation of your business right now, we're in a big time of inflation. There's probably a recession or there is a recession that's on those words, those cues make us think that we have to respond in a certain way.
[00:34:15] Dawn Andrews: And anybody that is surrounding you, that you're talking about business with, is going to parrot those cues back. And it's really difficult, I think, to, to say, I'm good, I'm good. I'm just gonna keep doing the things that I'm doing. I trust that it's gonna work out. It doesn't seem like it would, it doesn't seem logical or prudent sometimes, but nobody is living in your business the way that you are and knows what you're capable of, the way you do, and knows what your team's capable of the way that you do. So I get why it can feel like it's, counterintuitive, but it, I totally get it.
[00:34:46] Tracy Crossley: Yeah. Because the one thing that was very clear to me was, I'm going to make these hires and I'm going to hire this agency. I'm gonna hire this person to be on my team. I just went with it and I didn't lose sleep and I thought, I don't know how I'm gonna make the first, paycheck. This is gonna be interesting. But I didn't focus on that. I focused on what I was doing to grow the business and it worked out.
[00:35:08] Tracy Crossley: And it was a turning point because I realized I can trust this and I need to not worry about, oh shit, what's revenue doing? Uh oh.
[00:35:18] Tracy Crossley: And you know, I mean, obviously you keep an eye on it, but it's not like a fantasy. It's not a fairytale. It's very much about how you take risks and how you calculate your risks. And your risks are really at times like that where you say, okay, I have to grow this business if I don't grow this business, even though revenue's showing I shouldn't forget it.
[00:35:38] Tracy Crossley: And then one other thing I wanna mention is you talked about briefly.
[00:35:41] Tracy Crossley: Um, when it comes to other people throwing inflation out there, or, God forbid we're in a recession, whatever. Because here's the thing, there are successful businesses. It's not like we all stop working and we starve to death during a recession. We all keep going and there is opportunity in that.
[00:36:00] Tracy Crossley: And anytime you buy into those sort of thought processes, then you are creating an obstacle. And that of course, is where you wanna look at what is it inside of me that's insecure about that.
[00:36:12] Dawn Andrews: When you look back at these CEO archetypes that you've, created, do you now or did you before identify with one of them more particularly than another? Like how would you have labeled yourself?
[00:36:23] Tracy Crossley: I was in between the train wreck and rollercoaster for sure. Absolutely. Depending on the time of my life.
[00:36:29] Dawn Andrews: Yeah, I'm, I'm raising my hand over here too. Girl. Raising my hand over here too. I was like, identify. In fact, as we're recording this podcast, I'm thinking of Julissa my podcast producer that'll be helping me to edit this later. It's like I can almost feel her listening to those archetypes and going mm-hmm. you know, oh, I see that. Oh, I see that.
[00:36:50] Dawn Andrews: Yeah, it's interesting. Okay. Well, what tips would you, I don't know if tips is quite the right word, because it's thoughtful work that drives people into a new set of behaviors. So I don't wanna shortcut the fact that that's required, but are there some roads in that you can offer women who are listening now and starting like me raising their hand and going, oh, wait a minute. Maybe I'm in this category. Like, what advice can you offer?
[00:37:13] Tracy Crossley: So you wanna first of all become aware of your behavior, not necessarily other people's behavior, cuz we're really good at that. So you wanna become aware of how you contribute to the issues you have. So if you were to look at your business, and say, okay, I'm having these issues, what you wanna do is look for where you're responsible.
[00:37:32] Tracy Crossley: You're responsible for all of it, but you wanna look at how cringey that is. And the things you don't wanna admit to. You really want to look at that and you wanna start accepting responsibility. That's hard to do cause we can say it, but to actually feel it and work through the shame, because there's usually shame involved and that's why people don't take responsibility.
[00:37:50] Tracy Crossley: And when you work through that, then you start making new decisions. You decide, okay, what's the decision I've been making here that's helping to create this issue? Can I do something different here? It's not that you have to do the counterintuitive thing, but you have to do something that should make you uncomfortable. Anytime you make yourself uncomfortable, not in pain.
[00:38:09] Tracy Crossley: Okay? Discomfort and pain are two different things. I just wanna differentiate that. So when you put yourself in an uncomfortable position where maybe you let somebody step up and take over, or perhaps you take over yourself, I mean, depending on what's happening, and it's really about knowing, number one, the sky won't fall.
[00:38:29] Tracy Crossley: And number two, if you are, doing, let's say, I call it emotionally risky action, you're taking emotionally risky action because emotionally it feels horrible and uncomfortable. And it's risky because you don't know what's gonna happen.
[00:38:41] Tracy Crossley: Now, the other thing is too, is you can look at how you hold onto results. How do you let results define you? If they define you in a way that you feel, oh my gosh, if my results are poor, I may as well dig a hole and crawl into it. Or, if my results poor, what can I do? And, and here's the thing, don't do anything. What you wanna do with your results is let your results be. Making decisions from fear, which is, oh my God, I can't have these results.
[00:39:09] Tracy Crossley: That right there is fear. That's not trust, that's not passion. That is not a, let's say, intrinsic motivation that's extrinsic, and that means that you're just pushing it out farther for when it will probably fall apart again. You wanna make your decisions not from fear. I'm telling you, most people make it from fear. It's reactionary. It is not original in creative thought at all.
[00:39:34] Dawn Andrews: Interesting. So many things to think about. I got some homework to do when we get off this little podcast interview.
[00:39:42] Dawn Andrews: I appreciate the conversation.
[00:39:44] Dawn Andrews: Well, I'm very much anticipating the release of the second book, but in the absence of that, I wanted to make sure that we took a little time to talk about your book, overcoming Insecure Attachment.
[00:39:54] Dawn Andrews: And here's the title y'all, just so you have it. Overcoming Insecure Attachment: Eight Proven Steps to Recognizing Anxious and Avoidant Attachment Styles and Building Healthier, Happier Relationships.
[00:40:05] Dawn Andrews: So I wanted to make sure that we had a chance to talk with you about that, Tracy, so the people had a resource related to these CEO archetypes that you've come up with and can get their hands on something to make a difference for them. So tell me a little bit about the book.
[00:40:17] Tracy Crossley: Sure. So the book was originally named, Deal With It. We Are All Effed Up and basically the Eight Proven Steps to Happiness and Healthier Relationships. I think that was the subtitle.
[00:40:28] Tracy Crossley: The reason I wrote it was it was something I would always say in sessions because most people would think I'm the only one who's is this screwed up.
[00:40:36] Tracy Crossley: Nobody else is as screwed up. And I'm like, deal with it. We are all effed up because we. and it's just, okay, you could be screwed up, but you could be happy, right? And your life can actually work really well, even if you feel like you are a dumpster fire. You know? I mean, it really can. So anyways, though, the book is a manual.
[00:40:57] Tracy Crossley: I wrote it out in a very conversational style because I wanted people to be able to embrace it and embody it, meaning there's exercises throughout. It gives you a how to on breaking your patterns, on changing your beliefs. And no matter if it's professional or personal, it should work across the board.
[00:41:17] Tracy Crossley: And you'll find that all of your relationships usually improve, and you will also find that you feel better. Your emotional wellbeing should be important to you. And I think with the CEO types that I talked about, that's not always the case. You don't actually have a sense of emotional wellbeing, and if you don't, then why wouldn't you wanna do something about it?
[00:41:37] Dawn Andrews: No kidding. So if you recognize yourself in some of the CEO archetypes that we discussed, if you are finding yourself struggling with turnover on your team, or disconnection from your team, lack of collaborative environment, or your overly attached to and emotionally affected by your results or lack of results.
[00:41:58] Dawn Andrews: If you're not connecting and people feel like you're a bully or you think you may be perceived as a bully, then this is a tool that you can use to get in there and start making some change. So, where can people find you Tracy?
[00:42:11] Tracy Crossley: Go to tracycrossley.com and I have all of my social media there. I have all of my programs, both for business and for personal are listed there, and my podcast is also listed there as well.
[00:42:24] Dawn Andrews: Excellent. Well, before we go, I have one last question for you. So the question I ask all my guests is, imagine yourself standing in the middle of Times Square in New York among all the big sparkly billboards, and the biggest one is for you, and you get to leave a message for female leaders. What would you want on the billboard?
[00:42:41] Tracy Crossley: Wow, that is a really great question and so many things come to mind. The first one was, you can do it, but I think it's get clear on what you want to do first. Because a lot of times we'll just rush into action without, you know, it sounds good. Okay, that sounds good. But really, when you really know what you wanna do, go do it. Don't stop. Do not let anything stand in your way of what you really want.
[00:43:04] Dawn Andrews: Nice. You're leaving me inspired. Thank you,
[00:43:07] Tracy Crossley: you're welcome.
[00:43:08] Dawn Andrews: I'm so happy to have had you here for this conversation today. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and your insight and your tools for helping women become less encumbered and more unlimited leaders. Thank you so much.
[00:43:21] Tracy Crossley: Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed this conversation as well.
[00:43:25] Dawn Andrews: Thank you for joining me this week. To view the complete show notes and all the links mentioned in today's episode, visit my good woman.com. And before you go, make sure you follow or subscribe to the podcast so you can receive fresh episodes when they drop. And if you're enjoying my Good Woman, leave us a review on Apple Podcast reviews are one of the major ways that Apple ranks.
[00:43:46] Dawn Andrews: So even though it takes only a few seconds, it really does make a difference and helps our show grow. This episode was produced by me and Julissa Ramirez. Thank you again for joining me, Don Andrews in this episode of My Good Woman.